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Cont: Trump's Coup - Part 3

I have come to change my opinion on this attempted coup since the insurrection. Even then I thought it was a fairly spontaneous mentally-ill Dump affair.

But now it is coming out that the Dump insiders were planning for months how they would overturn the election they believed Trump would lose. (Some of this is probably already in the thread, sorry.)

'Do you realize you're describing a coup?': MSNBC host challenges Trump aide after he described plans to overturn the 2020 election
Peter Navarro described Trump allies' plans to decertify the 2020 election results to MSNBC.
He detailed the plans to challenge the results in battleground states.
Host Ari Melber shot back, asking: "Do you realize you are describing a coup?"
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There was the plan for GOP legislators to challenge the votes in key states, sending the vote to the House to decide. Navarro admitted to this plan openly on the news interview calling it the Green Bay Sweep and opined that if only Pence went along with the plan and Dump supporters stayed calm it would work. Navarro's oblivious to the fact he was describing something illegal.


From last Oct, now getting a bit more attention: All the ways Michigan made the congressional report on Trump trying to overturn the election - Mich. U.S. attorneys received talking points on Antrim Co. ‘coverup’
The U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee released the lengthy report on Thursday, following many months of investigation into Trump’s repeated efforts to involve the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) in his plans to illegally subvert the 2020 election results.

For their report, Democrats examined documents, interviewed key figures and compiled timelines to get a clearer picture of what happened during that time.
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Leading up to January 6, Steve Bannon publicly bragged about his behind-the-scene role fomenting the insurrection
In the days before the January 6 insurrection, former Trump adviser Steve Bannon bragged on his podcast about his behind-the-scenes efforts to undermine the results of the 2020 presidential election.

These claims include calls and meetings he joined with conservative lawyer John Eastman and Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, who were then running the Trump legal team’s “war room” out of the Willard Hotel in downtown Washington, D.C., where allies conspired to advance crackpot legal theories and misinformation campaigns aimed at stealing the 2020 presidential election from Joe Biden. At one point, Bannon suggested the team at the Willard Hotel solicited bail on behalf of Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio, who had been arrested in Washington, D.C., the day before the insurrection.
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There was Flynn's encouragement that Dump claim massive election fraud and declare martial law under the Insurrection Act. [Oh the irony there.]

What is the Insurrection Act and how could Trump use it?

Nov 2021: Lawyer John Eastman and Michael Flynn among six subpoenaed by Capitol attack panel
The House select committee investigating the Capitol attack has issued subpoenas to six of Donald Trump’s associates involved in the effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election from a “command center” at the Willard Hotel in Washington DC.

The subpoenas demanding documents and testimony open a new line of inquiry into the coordinated strategy by the White House and the Trump campaign to stop the certification of Joe Biden’s election win, and whether it was connected to the 6 January insurrection.
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The article is 2 months old but more details of the plot have come out since.

Legal Experts Accuse Michael Flynn of ‘Breathtakingly Morally Treasonous’ Sedition for Urging Donald Trump to Declare Martial Law
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I have come to change my opinion on this attempted coup since the insurrection. Even then I thought it was a fairly spontaneous mentally-ill Dump affair.

But now it is coming out that the Dump insiders were planning for months how they would overturn the election they believed Trump would lose. (Some of this is probably already in the thread, sorry.)

'Do you realize you're describing a coup?': MSNBC host challenges Trump aide after he described plans to overturn the 2020 election

There was the plan for GOP legislators to challenge the votes in key states, sending the vote to the House to decide. Navarro admitted to this plan openly on the news interview calling it the Green Bay Sweep and opined that if only Pence went along with the plan and Dump supporters stayed calm it would work. Navarro's oblivious to the fact he was describing something illegal.
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I saw that whole interview, and my favorite line was when Ari Melber said (paraphrasing), "You realize you're the type of person the Constitution protects the rest of us against?"

Hoo-hah! :thumbsup:
 
RollingStone: Swing State Trumpers Forged Letters to National Archives in Harebrained Scheme to Overturn Election
Pro-Trump groups in Arizona and Michigan attempted to fool the National Archives by sending forged certificates of ascertainment declaring Trump the recipient of the state’s 2020 electors. The Jan. 6 committee now has those fake certificates, thanks to the secretaries of State for both swing states, Politico reported on Monday.

The National Archives shared the forged documents with state officials, informing them it would not accept the fakes.
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This is after Wisconsin's forgers were revealed.

Notarized and all for prosecutors to act on. Hopefully they will.
 
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mgidm86 said:
Continued from here. As is usual the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from previous threads.
Posted By: Agatha




To repeat:








:thumbsup: Sounds like we are all in agreement now.
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I'm not sure that is a coup. Do coups ever have cover that they think they are adhering to the law? I'm not sure being mistaken about the rules is a coup.
 
Most Coups invoke some overriding, more 'Original' rule, law or principle as justification.

It's a trick to get fence sitters to not oppose you, and lets other countries pretend that it's not their business.
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
Most Coups invoke some overriding, more 'Original' rule, law or principle to justify themselves.
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Yes, that's why I phrased it in a way that accounts for that.

The argument here isn't some older principle or law. The argument seems to be, "it totally says that."

(not every version. I know a version or two where they do pursue an "original principle"....people who thought the US was made a corporation and crap.... but others are just saying it is a clear constitutional power).
 
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Look, no one's saying it was a successful coup. But this was definitely a serious attempt at a self-coup by 45 and his allies, and anyone arguing otherwise at this point is either very ignorant or being willfully obtuse/acting in bad faith.

It's not like he or his allies tried at all to hide their intentions. On the contrary, they were all but screaming from the rooftops that they were going to do something like this. And Trump was saying in public that he couldn't possibly lose other than via "fraud" or a "rigged election" going back to the 2016 campaign.

Frankly it would've been a surprise if the man hadn't tried to obstruct his failure to get re-elected and sabotage the outcome. That's how bad it is. Back in the 1970s, campaign-related sabotage, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power were considered serious enough scandals that they forced a President to resign in disgrace on threat of certain impeachment and removal from office. Nowadays the very facts are a partisan issue, which is why bad actors like Trump basically have impunity to do what they want in the knowledge that their team will close ranks and protect them.
 
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Allen773 said:
Look, no one's saying it was a successful coup. But this was definitely a serious attempt at a self-coup by 45 and his allies, and anyone arguing otherwise at this point is either very ignorant or being willfully obtuse/acting in bad faith..
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(there were multiple proposals with various levels of sincerity, so it depends on exactly what plan, but...)

I think you are being a little obtuse. The US Constitution contains a lot of undemocratic structures including the ability of legislatures to submit their own electors and processes for the house to choose the president. Efforts to get the bodies to do that certainly wouldn't qualify as a coup.
 
Yes it would.
It's clear that a State has to use the election system it has chosen, and can't retroactively change it to get a different outcome.
If it had chosen to pick it's own electors, that would probably have been constitutional - but what Trump and his fanboys tried to do was definitely a coup attempt.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Does the time of chusing get set at Dec 8th because of the cutoff?
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Before an Election, the rules of said election must be fixed.

There were no provisions for States to annull their elections in 2020, so any efforts to send in "alternate Electors" were (State) unconstitutional.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Before an Election, the rules of said election must be fixed.

There were no provisions for States to annull their elections in 2020, so any efforts to send in "alternate Electors" were (State) unconstitutional.
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Congress sets the time of chusing, but where do they get the power to fix the cutoff for election method?
 
BobTheCoward said:
(there were multiple proposals with various levels of sincerity, so it depends on exactly what plan, but...)

I think you are being a little obtuse. The US Constitution contains a lot of undemocratic structures including the ability of legislatures to submit their own electors and processes for the house to choose the president. Efforts to get the bodies to do that certainly wouldn't qualify as a coup.
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It's a coup because the reasons to not certify and Jan 6 and send it back to the states were ginned up, made up, fabricated, invented, created, imagined, . . . .

I just broke by thesaurus.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I'm not sure that is a coup. Do coups ever have cover that they think they are adhering to the law? I'm not sure being mistaken about the rules is a coup.
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We have Trump strong-arming the Georgia Secretary of the State to "find" 11,780 votes. We have right wing terrorist storming the Capitol in a violent insurrection. We have pro-Trump groups forging elector documents.

Where in any of that are these people "mistaken about the rules"?
 
"It's not a coup because if you call it a coup... goddamn our asses are on the line."

There. We can stop talking about it or entertaining this stupid ******* years long hairsplitting hijack.
 
carlitos said:
Did anyone else see this? Fraudulent Trump / Pence elector lists were sent to Washington by seven states.
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Is that actually correct? The article says "from" not "by". It says the documents were assembled by groups of Trump supporters, not by the states themselves.
 
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