Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[angrysoba]

I'm not saying some of these people might not be stupid. Some of them definitely are.

But whether they are or are not is irrelevant to changing their POVs. People dig in when you call them dumb or stupid. People dig in when you tell them they are wrong. Don't take my word on this. It's in the first (maybe second chapter of Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people written 80 years ago."

People make up their minds almost instinctively and then look for reasons to support their instincts. They also tend to dismiss reasons that don't for the same reasons. And this is true for everyone regardless of intelligence.

As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.

Indeed. Also, as skeptics^TM, it is worth understanding that people are not necessarily led down the wrong path because they simply lack knowledge. As Steven Novella et al. point out often, Carl Sagan's view of this simply being a knowledge deficit doesn't hold water.

That said, a lot of Trumpers really are stupid.

 

[Dave Rogers]

As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.

Given that you have that experience, what do you think would be a good approach to, for example, getting Trump supporters to accept that the evidence for widespread electoral fraud is somewhere between inadequate and nonexistent?

Dave

 

[Wudang]

Informative website here detailing events and charges from a Twitter account I follow, a data scientist @EmilyGorcenski

https://first-vigil.com/pages/details/insurrection/

 

[Wudang]

A twitter thread from her about someone stealing a laptop or hard drive from Pelosi’s office apparently with intent to sell to Russia. I hear the weather at Guantanamo is lovely this time of year.

https://twitter.com/emilygorcenski/status/1351106363938766852?s=21

 

[HHellpop]

Informative website here detailing events and charges from a Twitter account I follow, a data scientist @EmilyGorcenski

https://first-vigil.com/pages/details/insurrection/

Has someone pointed out this error to her?

USA v Black, Joshua Matthew (US District Court (DC) — 1:21-cr-3-RCL)
Awaiting Trial

Jacob Chansley, the QShaman, allegedly partook in the failed coup on January 6, 2021 at the US Capitol building. Photographed in a viking helmet and carrying a spear, Chansley's bare torso revealed several tattoos commonly associated with esoteric neo-Naziism. He was photographed at the dais in the Senate chamber.

 

[Wudang]

Good catch.

 

[Darat]

the world isn’t a meritocracy. you don’t need to be smart to be successful

in fact, the idea that because someone is successful they must be smart is how we got saddled with Trump.

If you want to understand how and why Trump was elected you cannot disregard over a decade of PR and marketing that the production company and networks put into The Apprentice and Trump. They created the character that was elected - the hugely successful businessman, who speaks his mind, has a no nonsense approach, takes no prisoners, billionaire mogul, without that he would have had no chance to be elected.

Of course he is stupid and if you ever truly wonder how literally stupid Trump is I think no story illustrates it better than this one: https://theweek.com/speedreads/785891/took-trump-14-years-realize-why-apprentice-named-apprentice

 

[Darat]

Has someone pointed out this error to her?

I’ve seen he has been “known” by quite a few names over the years. Crybaby would seem to be a good one.

 

[Darat]

The founder of Cowboys for Trump and Otero County Commissioner was arrested today. Court document show he claims he was just caught up in the crowd.

Except...a couple days ago at a county board meeting he said he was going to go to Washington on January 20 with a bunch of firearms.

He just keeps getting caught up a in an insurrectionist violent moment...after moment...after moment. Almost like like it is a constant.

Oh come off it - who hasn’t found themselves in the middle of an insurrection when you were simply walking around DC? Or who hasn’t planned a trip with firearms and only found out when you get there that by total coincidence there was a presidential inauguration happening?

 

[Horatius]

Ted Cruz is no dummy.

The people who were trying to read Ted Cruz' notes that they took from his desk, were dummies.

I'd love to have been there when Cruz saw that video, and realized how quick these guys were to throw Cruz under the bus because they misread Cruz' notes. Hey, Cruz? These are the guys who you're destroying democracy for. Doesn't matter how much you do for them, how far you stick your neck out, the moment they perceive you're no longer "one of them", even if they're mistaken, they'll turn on you like a hungry leopard.

So, maybe start moving away from them?

He did lead some kinds of prayer on the microphone. I couldn't understand anything. I assume it was something like, "Thank you Baby Jesus for this fabulously violent and highly illegal insurrection before this divine camera held by a reporter who will soon turnover the video to the FBI and get me arrested but also get me some sweet sweet screen time. Praise be Baby Lord Trump. Oggabooga." Something like that.

Yeah, the scene of this guy with Norse tattoos and a Native American inspired "shaman" outfit leading a prayer to Republican Jesus was surreal. This guy's theology isn't well-thought out, I think.

Even scarier were all the other guys grooving on his prayer, not even noticing how insane it all looked.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

They came prepared to do a very stupid thing and they did it because they are stupid. Don't make excuses for them.

Arguing against, it appears many of them came from professions a truly stupid person would have trouble getting into. Scrolling through the link below for examples:

“CEO of Chicago-based marketing-data company Cogensia”

“real-estate agent”

“Texas-based attorney”

“a former Pennsylvania state representative <at a school> where he served as an adjunct professor.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/...e-jobs-after-social-media-users-identify-them

I don’t know if this article is cherry-picking, but it should disabuse anyone that only stupid participated in the riot. Not saying you have to be a MENSA-level genius to pass the bar, get your real estate license, become a CEO, teach at a college or whatever, but I think a really stupid person might struggle with these.

I’ll stipulate that those involved appeared to make some very “stupid” choices, but overall I doubt that “stupidity” or general “lack of intelligence” explains the crimes committed on 1/6.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Oh Jesus what is anyone hoping to accomplish here by defining some exact level of "stupid?"

Hell if anything calling them stupid is making excuses for them. If they planned out intelligently that's actually much, much worse.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Arguing against, it appears many of them came from professions a truly stupid person would have trouble getting into. Scrolling through the link below for examples:

“CEO of Chicago-based marketing-data company Cogensia”

“real-estate agent”

“Texas-based attorney”

“a former Pennsylvania state representative <at a school> where he served as an adjunct professor.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/...e-jobs-after-social-media-users-identify-them

I don’t know if this article is cherry-picking, but it should disabuse anyone that only stupid participated in the riot. Not saying you have to be a MENSA-level genius to pass the bar, get your real estate license, become a CEO or whatever, but I think a really stupid person might struggle with these.

I’ll stipulate that those involved appeared to make some very “stupid” choices, but overall I doubt that “stupidity” or general “lacks of intelligence” explains the crimes committed on 1/6.

Petty bourgeoisie and reactionary politics, name a more iconic duo.

 

[alfaniner]

I'd love to have been there when Cruz saw that video, and realized how quick these guys were to throw Cruz under the bus because they misread Cruz' notes. Hey, Cruz? These are the guys who you're destroying democracy for. Doesn't matter how much you do for them, how far you stick your neck out, the moment they perceive you're no longer "one of them", even if they're mistaken, they'll turn on you like a hungry leopard.

So, maybe start moving away from them?





Yeah, the scene of this guy with Norse tattoos and a Native American inspired "shaman" outfit leading a prayer to Republican Jesus was surreal. This guy's theology isn't well-thought out, I think.

Even scarier were all the other guys grooving on his prayer, not even noticing how insane it all looked.

The insanity is exemplified during the scene where the guys on the floor are rifling through Cruz's papers, and in the background you can hear Horned Shaman singing something up in the gallery.

 

[Meadmaker]

Even scarier were all the other guys grooving on his prayer, not even noticing how insane it all looked.

And how it sounded. I get that prayers are not exactly doctoral dissertations, and you want to keep it simple, but that prayer was incoherent.

But the AMEN! at the end was awfully enthusiastic, and that's what matters I guess.



I really wonder how history will remember January 6 and the storming of the Capitol. Will my grandchildren see pictures of Shaman-guy sitting in the Vice President's chair, while the captions in their history book explains that the Trump era was marked by a general decline in critical thinking skills and an explosion of conspriracy oriented thinking, fueled by misinformation on the newly emerging platforms of social media?

This thread began with speculation about a Trump-friendly Supreme Court throwing out the law and declaring Trump to be President, or about military leaders backing Trump, or state legislatures ignoring their states' voters. None of those things happened, but instead we ended up with a guy wearing no shirt, a headdress that was some combination of Norse and Native American, with Norse tattoos, babbling in the chair of the President of the Senate, and a small but enthusiastic crowd shouting Amen!

I must admit I didn't see that coming.

 

[jimbob]

I've been trying (with no real absolute answer) to square that peg for myself for years now.

The (understandable) obsession with defining some point on the curve where we stop trying to reach out to these Trumpers and start driving those Trumpers off a cliff into the sea is cathartic, but honestly does anyone ever really us seeing to anything resembling an answer to that?

The best I can do is just go "These ideas; defense of fascism, pure post-intellectual thinking, no sin being as unforgivable as being 'dramatic', and the amount of absolute damage to our country just to 'troll the libs," All of those are no longer acceptable. My willingness to work with you as a person is entirely on your ability to separate those things from yourself. If you can' t be 'you' without those things, then no my future has no place for you."

Is that a great answer? No, not really. Sort of the best one I have right now though.

It's a good start.

 

[zorro99]

I'm not saying some of these people might not be stupid. Some of them definitely are.

But whether they are or are not is irrelevant to changing their POVs. People dig in when you call them dumb or stupid. People dig in when you tell them they are wrong. Don't take my word on this. It's in the first (maybe second chapter of Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people written 80 years ago."

People make up their minds almost instinctively and then look for reasons to support their instincts. They also tend to dismiss reasons that don't for the same reasons. And this is true for everyone regardless of intelligence.

As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.

Isn’t the whole reason this international skeptics website exists is to promote rational, critical thinking? It has been awhile but Carl Sagan and Michael Shermer wrote books on the topic in the 90s. May be worth dusting those books off to see what they advised.

 

[cosmicaug]

I agree. But that the left is incapable of evil is something too many people here seem to buy into.
And, never forget, one extreme always fuels the other extreme.

Heck no! I did not mean to suggest that anyone is incapable. Capable for sure.However, all the warning signs from the last three and a half to four decades and all that is actually happening is coming from the right.

 

[cosmicaug]

I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

They are not just one thing. This "they are just a bunch of dumb hicks" narrative diminishes them and it is, for that reason, extremely dangerous. If they are just a bunch of dumb hicks we don't have to do anything about them.

 

[Minoosh]

I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.

Conversely, people will be more willing to talk to you if they feel smart. My aunt was complaining about every death was chalked up to covid when it was only one factor. I would agree with her in an oblique way - yes, we know that people with health problems are more at risk. Then I mentioned excess deaths year over year, but gently, like I was simply pointing out something we both already knew. It worked out better than an earlier conversation when I started sputtering about how the CDC wasn't making this up. She eventually caught covid but is recovering. Ultimately "they would have died anyway" is not a very reassuring mindset. My aunt is 83 and has multiple co-morbitities and but doesn't want to die of something she doesn't have to.

I know you were speaking of politics, not public health but I think similar dynamics are in play. Withholding judgment, tell people something they didn't know, but not in a condescending way. If they feel smart(ish) they respond in a more positive way. When we feel dumb we slam up cognitive walls and fall back on our entrenched positions. I don't know exactly what prompts would be effective, but not something that causes hackles to rise and demolishes any hope of dialogue. You might say, "Does Pence really have that power, though?" Not as a challenge, just curious what they think.