Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

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Meadmaker said:
Watching that tape, one word kept going through my head, over and over.


Stupid.

These guys are just dumb. They're morons. Their reading comprehension skills are, well, below grade level. They can repeat words, but can't really form coherent thoughts. They're idiots.
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:thumbsup: So many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks.
 
Stacyhs said:
:thumbsup: So many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks.
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I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
 
acbytesla said:
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
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I agree. Intelligence is not a absolute preventive to believing in really stupid crap. In fact I would argue that being intelligent helps many people rationalize all too well, at least to themselves, believing stupid crap.

So I generally agree with avoiding calling people stupid, however calling the stupid ideas they believe in stupid doesn't bother me.
 
I've been trying (with no real absolute answer) to square that peg for myself for years now.

The (understandable) obsession with defining some point on the curve where we stop trying to reach out to these Trumpers and start driving those Trumpers off a cliff into the sea is cathartic, but honestly does anyone ever really us seeing to anything resembling an answer to that?

The best I can do is just go "These ideas; defense of fascism, pure post-intellectual thinking, no sin being as unforgivable as being 'dramatic', and the amount of absolute damage to our country just to 'troll the libs," All of those are no longer acceptable. My willingness to work with you as a person is entirely on your ability to separate those things from yourself. If you can' t be 'you' without those things, then no my future has no place for you."

Is that a great answer? No, not really. Sort of the best one I have right now though.
 
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acbytesla said:
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
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I appreciate what you're saying, and agree with you for the most part. I have had similar feelings about some members here who lump everyone into one big, bucket of evil, regardless of which side of the spectrum they fall on.

But I'm pretty sure I can draw a distinction between someone who supports and voted for Trump and a group of people who were fooled or fooled themselves into thinking that violently storming the Capitol building meant they were expressing their patriotism and freedom. The company I work for is owned by the former. The majority of its employees are in the same group. Many of them have served in the military, and some still do as reservists or guardsmen. I'm not aware of a single one who traveled to DC to take part in the rally. Even if they did, I'm having a very hard time picturing any of them going so far as to invade the Capitol building, and especially vandalizing it. If anything, they would be amongst those who have turned and walked away when they saw that happening, and probably a few would have tried to dissuade others from doing so. I'm certain that there are some who took part in the insurrection who recognize how wrong their actions were and regret them. But clearly, many of them are still proudly ignorant, or worse, intent on continuing in the same vein. And I don't believe any amount of reasoned arguments on our part will open their minds one iota.
 
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Basically, intelligent people can be racist.

I keep hearing people say, "I can't understand how smart people can support him?"

And the simple answer is, racism. You don't need to look any farther than t6at.
 
I'm not saying some of these people might not be stupid. Some of them definitely are.

But whether they are or are not is irrelevant to changing their POVs. People dig in when you call them dumb or stupid. People dig in when you tell them they are wrong. Don't take my word on this. It's in the first (maybe second chapter of Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people written 80 years ago."

People make up their minds almost instinctively and then look for reasons to support their instincts. They also tend to dismiss reasons that don't for the same reasons. And this is true for everyone regardless of intelligence.

As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.
 
acbytesla said:
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters.
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There are a lot of very intelligent Trump supporters.

Those people on the film from the New Yorker reporter, that had the guys in the Senate chambers? Those people were morons.

I don't mean they were saying things I didn't agree with. I don't mean that they were saying things that I think were unsupported, or even stupid. No, I mean they, themselves, at least the ones that were talking, were dumb as posts.


ETA: I assure you that I have expressed exactly the same sentiments that you have, and in fact more strongly. Not only do I not think all of Trump's supporters are stupid, I also don't think all of Trump's positions are stupid. I can understand why people would pull the Trump lever* even if they are extremely intelligent people.

Those guys in the Senate chamber were just plain idiots. They were barely able to converse.


*I suppose that's just a metaphor these days. I don't think any voting machines currently in use have levers.
 
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Meadmaker said:
There are a lot of very intelligent Trump supporters.

Those people on the film from the New Yorker reporter, that had the guys in the Senate chambers? Those people were morons.

I don't mean they were saying things I didn't agree with. I don't mean that they were saying things that I think were unsupported, or even stupid. No, I mean they, themselves, at least the ones that were talking, were dumb as posts.


ETA: I assure you that I have expressed exactly the same sentiments that you have, and in fact more strongly. Not only do I not think all of Trump's supporters are stupid, I also don't think all of Trump's positions are stupid. I can understand why people would pull the Trump lever* even if they are extremely intelligent people.

Those guys in the Senate chamber were just plain idiots.

*I suppose that's just a metaphor these days. I don't think any voting machines currently in use have levers.
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Again, I don't necessarily disagree. But just because they are pushing a stupid argument doesn't make them stupid. It just as often makes them craven and deceitful. The GOP and their leaders more often than not are gish galloping their way. Hawley and Cruz are Ivy league graduates. They know damn well they are peddling bull crap.
 
acbytesla said:
Again, I don't necessarily disagree. But just because they are pushing a stupid argument doesn't make them stupid. It just as often makes them craven and deceitful. The GOP and their leaders more often than not are gish galloping their way. Hawley and Cruz are Ivy league graduates. They know damn well they are peddling bull crap.
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But Hawley and Cruz weren't roaming around in the Senate chamber spouting out a bunch of nonsen...oh wait!
 
acbytesla said:
Again, I don't necessarily disagree. But just because they are pushing a stupid argument doesn't make them stupid. It just as often makes them craven and deceitful. The GOP and their leaders more often than not are gish galloping their way. Hawley and Cruz are Ivy league graduates. They know damn well they are peddling bull crap.
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Ted Cruz is no dummy.

The people who were trying to read Ted Cruz' notes that they took from his desk, were dummies.
 
It's the sheer anaracy that scares me in the New Yorker video.
And those shots of Qanon Shaman in Pence's chair will not help him since he has been portraying himself as just somebody who got caught up in the mob.not as a leader. Sure looked like some sort of a leader in that video.
 
I doubt that anybody else there really "followed" the guy who looks like he thought it was all an audition for the Village People and there should have been one based on Enkidu. They'd just consider him a freak and stand back & watch the show.
 
dudalb said:
It's the sheer anaracy that scares me in the New Yorker video.
And those shots of Qanon Shaman in Pence's chair will not help him since he has been portraying himself as just somebody who got caught up in the mob.not as a leader. Sure looked like some sort of a leader in that video.
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The founder of Cowboys for Trump and Otero County Commissioner was arrested today. Court document show he claims he was just caught up in the crowd.

Except...a couple days ago at a county board meeting he said he was going to go to Washington on January 20 with a bunch of firearms.

He just keeps getting caught up a in an insurrectionist violent moment...after moment...after moment. Almost like like it is a constant.
 
Delvo said:
I doubt that anybody else there really "followed" the guy who looks like he thought it was all an audition for the Village People and there should have been one based on Enkidu. They'd just consider him a freak and stand back & watch the show.
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In the video released today it appears he was out front not because he was leading but because he wanted to be on TV.

It shows him in the Senate gallery standing around casually while the cameraman gets into position. Then he does his pose and a minute or so of whooping while the camera is running. Then it appears he is talking with the camera man about getting down to the dais for his next glamorous photo shoot.

He did lead some kinds of prayer on the microphone. I couldn't understand anything. I assume it was something like, "Thank you Baby Jesus for this fabulously violent and highly illegal insurrection before this divine camera held by a reporter who will soon turnover the video to the FBI and get me arrested but also get me some sweet sweet screen time. Praise be Baby Lord Trump. Oggabooga." Something like that.
 
acbytesla said:
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
Click to expand...

I get you, but the hard truth is that many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks. I understand that there are many intelligent Republicans but those were not the one we see in that video screaming that they might as well set up a government since they're in the Senate chambers, taking pictures of papers in the senators' desks, coming prepared with flex cuffs and tasers, QAnon idiots, and that buffalo horned moron chanting up in the balcony. Those are just plain stupid people. They aren't just people who "got caught up in the moment". Look at the way they are dressed. They came prepared to do a very stupid thing and they did it because they are stupid. Don't make excuses for them.
 
the world isn’t a meritocracy. you don’t need to be smart to be successful

in fact, the idea that because someone is successful they must be smart is how we got saddled with Trump.
 
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