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Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

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crescent said:
Hundreds got in. Reporters already in the building to cover the EC vote mentioned coming out into the hallways and seeing literal hundreds of people in there, maybe a thousand or more.
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I doubt there were thousands, but hundreds for sure.
 
This is sea-lioning. There's goddamn news footage of massive crowds inside the Pentagon (stupid brainfart, Capitol) and Planigale absolutely knows it.
 
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Olmstead said:
A newer video from the other thread for some context:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/01/08/ashli-babbitt-shooting-video-capitol/

The barricaded door was the last barrier between the mob and congressmen. The mob was determined to get inside, and once one person got through, everyone else would have felt confident of getting through themselves.

The police around the mob seemed completely overwhelmed and incapable of stopping them in any way. Even after cops with riot gear arrived, the mob continued to attack the barricade unopposed. No one went to stop the woman from entering a space where congressmen were still in the process of being evacuated.
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Thank you. I am unable to access that link as it seems to be behind a paywall. I take your point, that she was shot because others might come through. Did any others? Was there no alternative? Maybe the officer did not have a taser or pepper spray or a baton or handcuffs.

I'll stick with the killing people is wrong view. Even if there was no alternative, it is not something to celebrate. She did not deserve to be shot in the face. This was a sad event, to be regretted, even if there was no other option.
 
Planigale said:
I suppose this all depends on definitions. Merriam-Webster 'a putting to death especially as a legal penalty'. She was deliberately put to death. If she was climbing through the window she was of no immediate threat to anybody. Was she armed? I don't know, does anyone here? I still rest with the issue that non-lethal force was available. The potential of what someone else might do is not justification for killing another person. Killing her to discourage others is not a justification for homicide. I would be happy to substitute 'homicide', 'murder', 'kill'.
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I don't know how you can watch that video and reach that conclusion.

She was at the head of a mob that was a few feet away from the legislative branch of the US government. I don't mean the place. I mean the people that make up the US government. Did you see the widely circulated photos of police/guards with their guns drawn, behind a furniture barricade on the floor of the House of Representatives while the mob was breaking the windows in the door? You can bet that if any of the mob had actually started crawling through those windows, they would have been, and should have been, shot.

Well, Ashli Babbit was on the other side of that same room. That was the window she was crawling through, and there were literally hundreds behind her. I don't know exactly how many US Representatives were in the room at the time, but the mob was coming for them, and that door she was crawling through was the last chance to stop them, and there were only a handful of armed officers standing between that mob and the US Congress.

Could it have been done differently? I don't see how. I believe there should be an inquiry into the subject and I am sure that that question will be asked, but it's really missing the point to say she was "climbing through a window", as if somehow vandalism or trespassing was the issue. The members of the US House of Representatives were being held inside the House chamber to protect them from a violent mob which outnumbered them and their guards by at least 10 to 1. Sure they could subdue her, but they couldn't subdue all the ones who were going to follow her through that window.
 
Planigale said:
Thank you. I am unable to access that link as it seems to be behind a paywall. I take your point, that she was shot because others might come through. Did any others? Was there no alternative? Maybe the officer did not have a taser or pepper spray or a baton or handcuffs.

I'll stick with the killing people is wrong view. Even if there was no alternative, it is not something to celebrate. She did not deserve to be shot in the face. This was a sad event, to be regretted, even if there was no other option.
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It's not something to celebrate. To that I agree. But you can't say it is wrong if there was no alternative.
 
Planigale said:
No, there is a line of succession. Yes, it would be a dreadful thing. I am sure that the secret service detail would not have allowed that to happen so this is a pretty hypothetical issue. But really, the POTUS is shot democracy goes on in the US. the VP is shot, pretty sure that would not end democracy in the US.
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Except that, in this case, it would have been the VP getting killed by Trump's angry supporters after Trump condemned his betrayal for refusing to illegally appoint him leader. The context makes it a little more serious, with a political leader encouraging a mob to threaten other politicians who don't give him the power he thinks he deserves.

EDIT: Yes, there were members of the mob stalking through the Capitol shouting "Where's Pence?!?"
 
JoeMorgue said:
This is sea-lioning. There's goddamn news footage of massive crowds inside the Pentagon and Planigale absolutely knows it.
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No, I don't. Now I do. I have seen a few stills and no videos. Sometimes the facts prove that one is wrong. The initial pictures I saw looked like only a few people. I have watched no news broadcast in the last 48 hours. I have seen some pics in papers and some from last night on the BBC website. My download speeds mean I avoid streaming. You would be justified in saying that I am foolish to express an opinion if I am ignorant of the facts. You could be helpful and inform me of the facts. But you would be wrong to assume because you know something I know something. You would be utterly wrong and in breach of the forum rules (or potentially the winner of a $1,000,000 prize) to claim to know what I know.
 
Planigale said:
Even if there was no alternative, it is not something to celebrate. She did not deserve to be shot in the face. This was a sad event, to be regretted, even if there was no other option.
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On that point, I agree.
 
She had an enormous backpack on.

They absolutely had to shoot.

And notice how fast that alcove cleared out once it wasn't a damn game anymore.
 
Planigale said:
No, I don't. Now I do. I have seen a few stills and no videos. Sometimes the facts prove that one is wrong. The initial pictures I saw looked like only a few people. I have watched no news broadcast in the last 48 hours. I have seen some pics in papers and some from last night on the BBC website. My download speeds mean I avoid streaming. You would be justified in saying that I am foolish to express an opinion if I am ignorant of the facts. You could be helpful and inform me of the facts. But you would be wrong to assume because you know something I know something. You would be utterly wrong and in breach of the forum rules (or potentially the winner of a $1,000,000 prize) to claim to know what I know.
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if that's the case, more question marks, less periods
 
Delphic Oracle said:
She had an enormous backpack on.

They absolutely had to shoot.

And notice how fast that alcove cleared out once it wasn't a damn game anymore.
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I haven't seen a picture of her climbing through the window, so I'll accept that she was doing so with an enormous backpack on. Was the thought she had a bomb in the back pack? I do not understand otherwise the association between a back pack and her needing to be shot in the face.
 
Planigale said:
Democracy would not have ended if they had opened the doors. Not even US democracy. It would have had no effect on the democratic institutions of the constituent states. It would have had transient impact on the functioning at federal level. If US democracy is really so frail then it needs a radical overhaul.
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This guy probably just had a nerf gun on his hip, and the zipties were just for a bit of light kidnapping.

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Planigale said:
You are correct. I have a non-evidence based belief there was an alternative.
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You're being silly. This was a violent mob that has now killed a policeman, and you're thinking that trying to storm a room with potential hostages was peaceful?




Fast Eddie B said:
Maybe, maybe not.

But one has to play out the scenario if she was the first of many to pour in through the window. Then overwhelmed the handful of armed officers and took their weapons. Then started hunting down and executing Democratic representatives and possibly even Pence if they could find him. The investigation into the massacre could then focus on why the officers chose not to use their weapons. Extending the Principle of Charity to the officer involved seems reasonable, pending investigation. To extend that Principle to a mob focused on beaching a perimeter to access lawmakers seems risky at best.
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Exactly.
 
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