Trump's Coup d'état.

[johnny karate]

Not to mention the fact that a delay in the transition process risks national security and public safety

There are several points made in that article, but perhaps the most convincing evidence is that the report from the 9/11 Commission found that the delay in Bush's transition contributed to the terrorist attacks on the US in 2001. That's several thousand US citizens who might still be alive if not for those delays.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that such an attack will happen again, but it's an illustration of why delays aren't without consequence - and it should be borne in mind that there is an ongoing serious health crisis that is going to needs as smooth a transition as possible.

The attitude of "oh, what harm can it cause?" is fatuous when the answer is "it could cost thousands of lives".

We have been assured that everything is fine. Please stop being so dramatic.

 

[dirtywick]

Not to mention the fact that a delay in the transition process risks national security and public safety

There are several points made in that article, but perhaps the most convincing evidence is that the report from the 9/11 Commission found that the delay in Bush's transition contributed to the terrorist attacks on the US in 2001. That's several thousand US citizens who might still be alive if not for those delays.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that such an attack will happen again, but it's an illustration of why delays aren't without consequence - and it should be borne in mind that there is an ongoing serious health crisis that is going to needs as smooth a transition as possible.

The attitude of "oh, what harm can it cause?" is fatuous when the answer is "it could cost thousands of lives".

We’re in the midst of a pandemic where we are nearing a 9/11 worth of Americans are lost daily under the leadership of a guy who is more occupied with creating a delay than dealing with that. The economic damage will probably ultimately also kill more Americans needlessly.

And the truth is evidence suggests Trump is actively sabotaging the next president in the face of these major issues for his own political gain, or perhaps just plain old spite.

This is much more serious than a terrorist attack imo.

 

[dann]

So this is what you guys take as a viable threat, now? The empty-handed hot air from a doughy chiropractor and some randoms at the Log Cabin bar? Quaking in my boots, baby.

Notice the alternative he presents, i.e. what he wants to believe and what what he can't believe:
"If I'm being manipulated by Trump ... then he is the greatest con man that ever lived in America," Caleb Fryar said, "I think he's the greatest patriot that ever lived."
It's the reason why Fox has been so popular and is now being replaced by Newsmax and OAN: They confirm their delusion and help them believe that Trump's palpable insanity is truth.

Some of them are bound to act out when it becomes impossible for them to hold on to their faith in the leader of their cult.

By the way, Trump isn't the greatest con man that ever lived in America. His performance is pathetic. But he was supported by an apparatus that is still there to help the next one, and more (Newsmax, OAN) are hoping to join in and get their share of the market.

 

[Thermal]

Here’s you, offering a chilling warning about society’s descent into mob rule because some statues got vandalized:

Truly, just not enough laughing dogs. Had you bothered to read, you might ponder the difference between the mob psychology of tearing down a statue, knowing they can do so without interference et al, versus a lone dough boy talking cheap swagger. Does Captain Comfy Couch have any precedent to believe he will not be interfered with when attacking the ******* US Govt?

And as long as the actions of the 3 million or so who aren’t full of **** don’t directly impact me, why should I care?

Has it occurred to you that the 3 mil might already be completely docile and honest people, with no allegiance to Trump at all? No, I didn't think so.

 

[cosmicaug]

Sometimes there just aren't enough laughing dogs.

So this is what you guys take as a viable threat, now? The empty-handed hot air from a doughy chiropractor and some randoms at the Log Cabin bar? Quaking in my boots, baby.

I especially like the weaseling qualifiers: IF Trump orders them to take up arms, they for sure tootin will. Funny how cocky you can be when you know nothing will happen. I guess we'll have to add Captain Suburban Butterball commanding Meal Team Six to the swoon list of power players. Its just amazing, the empty **** you guys get scared of.

And before someone says it, we will always have a Tim McVeigh running around. If he staged his attack today, he'd be wearing a MAGA hat and Qanon shirt. They will always be out there, and always act out, Trump or no Trump. But these Colonel Comfy Couch windbags....I mean, can we be serious for like five minutes?

You could say the same thing about any random gathering of 'death to America' Muslims. You could say the same about any sampling of incel & MWGTOW morons. No one here thinks that there's a high likelihood of that chiropractor opting, a few years down the road, for armed insurrection instead of a retirement community (he might, but it's not likely). No one thinks that.

That doesn't imply that the fact that such radicalized folk are conspicuously visible where they previously were not visible is meaningless.

On the contrary, the increased visibility & "chatter" from these folk, most of whom are (as you suggest) too gutless or lacking in seriousness to actually do anything that might disturb their comfortable lives, should be seen as an indicator that an increasing minority of unhinged individuals also exists.

You are burying your head in the sand if you think otherwise and it is a ridiculous position to maintain.

 

[Meadmaker]

Certain forum disputes are hard for me to understand.

What we have here is a whole bunch of people who can't stand Trump, but some are truly angry at others because they disagree on exactly how or why we ought to not be able to stand him.

I guess I have a foot in both pools. I don't take his undemocratic efforts as an immediate threat, but I am very concerned that they have been accepted by so many. I do think Donald Trump is dangerous and he would gladly throw out an election result to stay in power, but I think there is zero chance at succeeding. Still, I think it chips away at the foundation of democracy, and makes the next guy more likely to succeed where he failed. So, I think it's reasonable to call attention to his coup-like behavior, but not to get all bent out of shape that it might succeed this time.

I think the real problem in our country that is playing out in miniature right here is a sort of demand for extremism. It's not enough to be on my side. You have to be wholly and completely on my side, without reservation. On the national stage, we see it in Trump crowds condemning Fox News, or calling Mitt Romney a traitor. From the opposite side, one dare not suggest that Trump's actions may be deplorable, but not illegal. I speak from experience that it is not acceptable to many who post here to suggest that the right wing is anything less than neo-Nazis.

I stopped posting for a little while after someone compared me to Joseph Goebbels. I can't remember exactly why. Something that happened in Portland. I understand that people don't always agree with me, but I'm pretty sure that me and Goebbels aren't really in the same league.

So, I think that's a bigger problem than Donald Trump, and it existed before Donald Trump and it will after Donald Trump. I think it led to the rise of Donald Trump. I will, though, say that Donald Trump has made it worse, because he has participated in and encouraged the vilification of the "other side". No other president has engaged in the sort of mudslinging that Trump has.

So, if you don't want to be like Donald Trump, ask yourself if maybe you shouldn't tone it down just a bit. The people who disagree with you might be wrong, but they are not evildoers out to destroy America, deliberately or through inaction. We'll be fine if we don't tear each other apart.


(Exception: Ok. There are one or two evildoers who really are that bad, but not in this thread.)

 

[cosmicaug]

Its just amazing, the empty **** you guys get scared of.

Here’s you, offering a chilling warning about society’s descent into mob rule because some statues got vandalized:

Any mob, with any motivation, being empowered by precedent to do anything they like without regard for the procedural will of the actual people. For a start.

I doubt it. Most of my fellow Americans are 99% full of **** and don't believe half of what they say. Posing and posturing and parroting.

It's OK. He thinks only about 3 million people are dangerous.

 

[Thermal]

You could say the same thing about any random gathering of 'death to America' Muslims. You could say the same about any sampling of incel & MWGTOW morons. No one here thinks that there's a high likelihood of that chiropractor opting, a few years down the road, for armed insurrection instead of a retirement community (he might, but it's not likely). No one thinks that.

That doesn't imply that the fact that such radicalized folk are conspicuously visible where they previously were not visible is meaningless.

On the contrary, the increased visibility & "chatter" from these folk, most of whom are (as you suggest) too gutless or lacking in seriousness to actually do anything that might disturb their comfortable lives, should be seen as an indicator that an increasing minority of unhinged individuals also exists.

You are burying your head in the sand if you think otherwise and it is a ridiculous position to maintain.

That's exactly what I worry about, that the genuinely troubled ones have seen their numbers and feel free to speak up. That, and the related lowering of the dignity bar, are Trump's most significant legacies.

And that is exactly why we should ridicule the posing. Put them back in the basement dicking around on Prison Planet before you guys convince them that the "coup" is real and something they should actually sacrifice for.

Don't feed into the crazy, is all I'm saying. Enough is already out of the bag without you guys sparking a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Thermal]

It's OK. He thinks only about 3 million people are dangerous.

You might want to catch up on my response to that one. You can be full of **** and be completely docile. I'm not worried about them.

Eta: I think theres a lot more than 3 million dangerous people running around. Not the least of which are the "good guys" carrying guns into rallys nowadays. Unhinged is bad news, no matter your political beliefs.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

It's worth mentioning that the faithless electors were all "protest votes". None of them made any difference to the electoral outcome. And not a single one of those votes went to Clinton.

This is despite a considerable effort on the part of Democrat-aligned citizens to try to convince their electors pledged to Trump to change their vote to Clinton and overturn the outcome of the election.

The Way Out of Trumpland: Hail Mary Pass to Save the Nation.

You might want to consider reading the article you linked to...

But they are not asking them to vote for Hillary Clinton. Instead, they are asking that they vote for a to-be agreed-upon compromise moderate Republican candidate, such as a John Kasich, Colin Powell or Mitt Romney.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here’s you, offering a chilling warning about society’s descent into mob rule because some statues got vandalized:

I don't think a mob tearing down statues equates to mob rule, unless you mean they ruled the park the statue was in for a few hours.


CHOP in Seattle was mob ruled for a couple weeks. That was a few square blocks. Trump tried to make it sound as if the whole city was involved. It wasn't.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not to mention the fact that a delay in the transition process risks national security and public safety

There are several points made in that article, but perhaps the most convincing evidence is that the report from the 9/11 Commission found that the delay in Bush's transition contributed to the terrorist attacks on the US in 2001. That's several thousand US citizens who might still be alive if not for those delays.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that such an attack will happen again, but it's an illustration of why delays aren't without consequence - and it should be borne in mind that there is an ongoing serious health crisis that is going to needs as smooth a transition as possible.

The attitude of "oh, what harm can it cause?" is fatuous when the answer is "it could cost thousands of lives".

Bush's failure to listen to Clinton's warnings about BinLaden was a bigger issue than any delay in transition. If the Commission found Bush needed time to figure that out for himself then I'd buy it.

If people want to voice concern about the delay, the pandemic crisis is more than enough to be concerned about.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We have been assured that everything is fine. Please stop being so dramatic.

Can you quote where anyone said that?

I, for one, said stop worrying, Trump will leave office on or before Jan 20 and none of his attempts to change the election outcome would work.

That's a long way from "everything is fine".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

By the way, Trump isn't the greatest con man that ever lived in America. His performance is pathetic. But he was supported by an apparatus that is still there to help the next one, and more (Newsmax, OAN) are hoping to join in and get their share of the market.

Name another conman greater than Trump.

Trump's message may have been amplified and the pump primed by social media and the likes of propaganda news broadcasts, but Trump is a uniquely skilled conman as evidenced by his entire life and all the sycophants who worship him.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Name another.

L. Ron Hubbard?

 

[Meadmaker]

By the way, Trump isn't the greatest con man that ever lived in America. His performance is pathetic. But he was supported by an apparatus that is still there to help the next one, and more (Newsmax, OAN) are hoping to join in and get their share of the market.

I suppose success as a con man isn't measured by how many people do not believe you, but by how many people do believe you.

If you are famous and most people know you are a fraud, but a million people admire you and are willing to follow you, give you money, or whatever else it is you are trying to get from them, you are a pretty good con man, even if hundreds of millions of people know you are a fraud.

 

[cosmicaug]

... but Trump is a uniquely skilled conman as evidenced by his entire life and all the sycophants who worship him.

Maybe power of positive thinking BS can work sometimes (at least if you have a rich daddy who'll bail you out). Fake it until you make it;... even if you never make it.

 

[Suddenly]

So Trump's coup of the GOP is complete? Perhaps. Or perhaps now that he is a loser they might realize that continuing down that path is not the best idea? The way things are going, soon the definition of 'Trumpist' will be too extreme for the majority of conservatives to accept. While he was winning they could hold their noses, but now he's just an embarrassment. So the GOP has to decide which way to go - stay all-in on Trumpism and lose popular support, or pretend they were never with him and put it behind them. Hopefully some will go one way and some the other, splitting the GOP in two and ensuring that Democrats win forevermore!

It isn't a coup.

Trump or not, the GOP Southern strategy was always going to die because it made expanding the GOP coalition unworkable. It is hard to be more inclusive when your brand is specifically not wanting to be inclusive, and the raw demographics are not their friend. They are only relevant because of the anti-democratic aspects of our system and their willingness to cynically game same. Trump did nothing but make this endgame way more dangerous and messy than it would have been with some lump like Jeb! being the face of the party.

This is what they are. It is tempting to want to believe that there exists in any significant amount Republicans that are under some sort of spell and really deep down inside are swell people who believe in the ideals of democracy and country over party, but that is getting to be a dangerous fantasy.

But what if it's being Trumpist that gives them minority rule? In this election Trump picked up more minority votes, but lost even more suburban white votes to Biden. This trend will continue while Republicans keep their wagon hitched to Trumpism.

It is more a question of whether the Trumpists want to keep carrying the fiscal conservative elite constituency than the other way around. That has been fraying for years because populists and plutocrats are not even close to being natural allies.

The angry populists gradually divorcing from the fiscal conservatives and winding up with a coalition with the progressives isn't as weird of an idea as it sounds. Those groups have way more in common with each other than the coalitions they are in now. All it would take is a Trump figure who supports and rams through UHC and some labor/safety net increases for the GOP to build a strong power base because large numbers of progressives would be on board with this because it is easier to deal with explicit racism while basic needs are met than to deal with structural racism while unable to pay bills. White moderates and all that...

Eventually the slightly socially conservative fiscal conservatives will join the Democratic Party's slightly liberal fiscal conservatives and the Bidens of the world finally get the moderate Republican party they have been pining for.

But that's getting a little downstream.

Short version: Not a coup. Just a weird twist to a re-alignment that has been building for a while.

 

[cosmicaug]

If you are famous and most people know you are a fraud, but a million people admire you and are willing to follow you, give you money, or whatever else it is you are trying to get from them, you are a pretty good con man, even if hundreds of millions of people know you are a fraud.

Trump absolutely demolishes the rule of the thumb that says that a con man does not look like a con man (I suppose he mostly still does to the marks but when you are talking about the marks that becomes more of a tautology than an even mildly interesting observation).

 

[gnome]

Bush's failure to listen to Clinton's warnings about BinLaden was a bigger issue than any delay in transition. If the Commission found Bush needed time to figure that out for himself then I'd buy it.

If people want to voice concern about the delay, the pandemic crisis is more than enough to be concerned about.

If I'm not mistaken, there may have been something of a delay, but even before the outcome was resolved the transition process began to simply involve both candidates as if either could win.