Treating Other People With Respect

It's uneconomical to offend the political sensibilities of people you hope to do business with. It pays to be politically correct.
Arguably, it is their social sensibilities.

Regardless, how is this politically correct? This was not excessively concerned. Assuming the university didn't produce the video, the probably didn't know anything about it and didn't pull it.


They want people to join, but the message they composed to encourage people to join was silenced not out of lack of respect (as Neil Gaiman imagines must be the case), but because it was politically offensive to some.
Joining a sorority is politically offensive to some?
 
They want people to join, but the message they composed to encourage people to join was silenced not out of lack of respect (as Neil Gaiman imagines must be the case), but because it was politically offensive to some.


How about this example: MFA recasts kimono days after complaints of stereotyping. The complaints of a few outweigh the non-complaints of everyone else. Many folks in Japan were perplexed by these complaints—here's one example. As it happened, there were opponents to the complainers in Boston itself.
 
Are you arguing that sexism, racism, and misogyny doesn't exist?

No, he's pointing out that when one side points fingers, they should be be very aware that (as the saying goes) for every one pointing at their enemy, three are pointing back at them.

He's also pointing out that if you maintain that the accusations of PC are "overblown", so are the accusations of "sexism, racism, and misogyny".
 
He's also pointing out that if you maintain that the accusations of PC are "overblown", so are the accusations of "sexism, racism, and misogyny".
As you keep reading the thread, you'll see many people pointing out that sexism, racism, and misogyny are real things apart from just the accusation of them, often with quantifiable data to support them.

Accusations of PC, on the other hand, are really nothing more than a pejorative catch-all for whatever topic dissatisfies the accuser.
 
Only according to your intentional misunderstanding of the term.

No, that's a summarization based on the definitions provided here.

Many definitions refer to it as a pejorative, which fits how it is used. Despite the name, it is not limited in any way to politics, but to a very large number of topics. It is almost always applied to the excesses of others, which are subjectively judged by the accuser.


ETA: Incidentally, you're avoiding the question:
Are you arguing that the sorority or university had a problem with that message? That neither group wished people to join the sorority on that campus and have fun?
 
Last edited:
(I think that first one would be "racist", rather than "hate speech".)

It's neither until you know what the underlying motivation for the question is.

"The Holocaust never happened because you can't trust the lies of Jews" would be the question posed from a racist perspective.

"I am not convinced the Holocaust happened because I have not seen sufficient persuasive evidence that it did." would be the question asked from a standpoint of neutral inquiry.

No claim whatsoever should ever be considered "beyond discussion/debate". That's not how intellectual honesty works.

I note you didn't address the second ciaim equating a request for evidence of rape with "mysogyny". In our criminal justice system, evidence is required to support a claim of crime. Are you implying that an alleged victim's word (men are raped also) standing alone is sufficient evidence to convict another person of rape?

That you left the core implication that a request for evidence was somehow improper stand is demonstrative of a PC tenet in and of itself.

So, are you saying one cannot discuss or identify positions as racist or misogynistic without shutting down the conversation? Does identifying something as a bad position prevent conversation?

Yes it does tend to prevent conversation on the original issue because inevitably the argument turns to the accusation of "racism" or "mysogyny" rather than the topic first being addressed. The use of such "stopper" terms is a rhetorical diversion.

I'd argue that labeling and dismissing something as PC does the same thing, except that PC has no real meaning beyond "showing courtesy to someone I don't like".

Read this article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ng-of-the-american-mind/399356/#disqus_thread

and this book:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Language-Police-Pressure-Restrict/dp/1400030641

For good examples of how PC has come to mean far more than simply "being polite".

Of course there are also embarrassing displays of PC indignation such as this:

http://www.sodahead.com/fun/harvard...-lives-matter/question-4630586//dp/1400030641

contrast with how the pro-protester side describes it:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/12/12/harvard-primal-scream-protest-opinion/
 
As you keep reading the thread, you'll see many people pointing out that sexism, racism, and misogyny are real things apart from just the accusation of them, often with quantifiable data to support them.

Accusations of PC, on the other hand, are really nothing more than a pejorative catch-all for whatever topic dissatisfies the accuser.

See above.
 
The British-Iranian comedian Shappi Khorsandi does a routine where she points out how polite middle class people will tie themselves in descriptional knots at a party when drawing someone's attention to someone else, rather than be blunt and say that they mean the one black person there. "Yes, she's with Steve. He over there. Standing by the pot plant. In the green shirt. No, not that green shirt, the other one. Yes, OK, the black guy...."

Not surprising, considering what can happen to you if you use the obvious description.

http://fox2now.com/2015/07/20/patricks-customer-wont-return-following-restaurants-apology/
 
Still some interesting and thoughtful (and respectful) discussions here. Keep it up.

I guess my biggest problem with anti-PC crusaders is when they use extremes such as the cited New York Times case as the reason why Daniel Tosh should make rape jokes.

There is a spectrum, and one can be in favour of it at one end of the spectrum, while still seeing the other end as bad. It's a shame, I believe, that major dictionary definitions now define political correctness as perjorative. The people who took it to that place are doing it wrong, in my opinion, and poisoning the whole idea to the point where, yes, it is okay to deliberately and maliciously cause offense because free speech, and anyone who argues that we should all just be nicer to each other is labelled with the perjorative term "politically correct" and thereby arbitrarily dismissed.
 
Last edited:
They define it as a pejorative because it largely is used as a pejorative. The Wikipedia article lists five sources to support the claim.

And why is it largely used as a pejorative?

If you are looking for a single simplistic monolithic universal human response to almost anything, you're not going to find it. However...

Who says I'm looking for that? Have you heard of generalizations?

People will generally be polite to people like themselves, for varying definitions of "polite" within the group dynamic. They generally will not be polite to people unlike themselves. "Us vs Them" is a pretty strong impulse in humans.

Politeness is not an in-group dynamic, it's exactly the opposite. It's for communicating with the Others.

If that were true, you wouldn't find politicians labeling themselves as "conservative" the way politicians used to, and perhaps still do, distance themselves from "liberal" in favor of "progressive".

It's not a pejorative to the conservatives, obviously.
Same as "atheist" is not a pejorative to atheists.

But you don't see that, do you? In fact, politicians and commentators proudly embrace the label of "conservative". It's not an insult in the same fashion.

Maybe not in the same fashion, but it's an insult among liberals. When you read the liberal leaning press, it's blatantly obvious.

That is very subjective and meaningless.

It's neither. It's less subjective and meaningless than 'polite', 'courteous' and 'respectful'.

For someone to be even a little bit concerned about a group you don't like (the dreaded Other) might seem excessive to you, when by any objective standard, the change being asked for is a very small one.

For some reason you have this idea that people who object to excessive PC don't like some particular marginalized group. I can't tell if that's an honest misconception or deliberate rhetoric.

You're going with this subjective argument, ok. "Treating other people with respect" is totally meaningless and subjective. What might be respect to you, might be highly offensive to others.

This is why identification as PC is something that has to applied externally. No one who believes they are doing the right thing or even merely just being polite is going to see it as excessive. It being excessive is the perception of someone else. Typically, the perception of someone who does not approve of the politeness.

Being polite is never the problem. :rolleyes:

I agree that there are issues with modern universities, but what you characterize as a problem with being PC, I see as a matter of economics. Schools are competing for money and trying to provide what they perceive as being the demanded by their clients who are, Ed help us, in their late teens and early twenties. Yes, it's going to end up being idiotic.

Whether the motivation is economics is irrelevant to whether the actions and sentiments put forward there are actually what we could label as political correctness. I agree there are a wide variety of motivations, some good, some less so, for being politically correct

I have no idea what that is.

To clarify, are you unfamiliar with Matt Taylor and Tim Hunt media cases?

And, you'll notice, so are you. You're denying that it is a pejorative, despite numerous references to it as one.

Here you're mistaken again. I am denying that it is merely a pejorative, a point that I was reminded I missed before. You'll find me agreeing plenty of times that it's also a pejorative. In fact, in this very post, you're responding to a conversation tree that started with me asking why do you think PC is a pejorative, hoping we could arrive to actually exploring the reasons what it means to people that makes it a pejorative for them.

The very definition you use for it requires it to be something that someone applies to someone else.

No. I can apply it to myself if I would fit the description.

The definition describes situational context. You could argue it's hard to say what's excessive or who's marginalized, or what is polite, or what's offense, or what is perceived, but then we'll be stuck in semantics for the rest of this thread. It's no more difficult of a definition than racism or sexism. You'll have edge cases not knowing whether it applies there, but generally you recognize it when you see it.


It is not inherent in the intent of ones own actions.

I don't know what that means.

Although I suppose any thing is possible, I doubt you'll find many people that you would call PC who set out to intentionally be excessively concerned not be perceived as as excluding or offending groups that are considering marginalized.

What you set out to be is not what you actually end up being. Are you suggesting people can never describe themselves as "excessively [adjective]"?

It's a pejorative like "sexist", you'll possibly find very few people who self-identify as sexist too. It's not because it's semantically impossible, it's because of their ego.

Just as a point of interest, do you consider Bill O'Reilly's War on Christmas crusade to be politically correct?

I'm not familiar with it. But I'd think O'Reilly is more concerned about being a good Christian than being PC. I might be wrong. Maybe he's all PC.
 
Last edited:
No, he's pointing out that when one side points fingers, they should be be very aware that (as the saying goes) for every one pointing at their enemy, three are pointing back at them.

He's also pointing out that if you maintain that the accusations of PC are "overblown", so are the accusations of "sexism, racism, and misogyny".

Pretty much.

As you keep reading the thread, you'll see many people pointing out that sexism, racism, and misogyny are real things apart from just the accusation of them, often with quantifiable data to support them.

In another words, just like political correctness.

Accusations of PC, on the other hand, are really nothing more than a pejorative catch-all for whatever topic dissatisfies the accuser.

*sigh*
You keep saying that despite people giving you definitions what it means and bringing examples how it looks like.
 
The video itself was the message. "The highly produced video, released in advance of Bid Day — when potential members begin to choose between the sororities that have offered them admission — is a four-minute-long paean to the benefits of joining the sorority, Alpha Phi.

It mostly shows sorority members having a good time: dancing in front of their sorority house, blowing glitter and kisses, frolicking in swimsuits and taking a trip to the school’s Bryant-Denny football stadium in the company of the university’s mascot, an elephant known as Big Al."

Are you arguing that the sorority or university had a problem with that message? That neither group wished people to join the sorority on that campus and have fun?
Okay, it doesn't look like you're going to get there on your own, so let me help.

The intended message of the video is "Join our sorority! We have fun!" No one has a problem with this message. Not the sorority, not the university, not the people who complained.

However, the message the video actually sent was "Join our sorority for white girls! We have fun!" The sorority would not want that message out there, which would not only drive away possible non-white candidates (and their money) but also white candidates (and their money) who would not want to belong to racist organization.

Here's the important part: The sorority, itself, retracted the video because it sent the wrong message, a message they had not intended to send.

This is not an instance of anyone excessively avoiding offending anyone or an intended message being suppressed or shouted down.


(now, I am giving the sorority the benefit of the doubt that they are not a racist organization. If they are, then maybe it is evidence of "PC run amok". I kinda doubt it.)
 
Last edited:
This is why trump is doing well, despite the calls of social justice warriors about making a few non PC statements.

He is the model of how to not be PC. So clearly people calling him a racist or misogynist are whinny SJW's and can be ignored.
 
This is why trump is doing well, despite the calls of social justice warriors about making a few non PC statements.

He is the model of how to not be PC. So clearly people calling him a racist or misogynist are whinny SJW's and can be ignored.

But, I have it on good authority that everyone wants to be polite to other people, especially those different than themselves. :confused:
 
And why is it largely used as a pejorative?
My guess is because it is far easier to label someone and dismiss them out-of-hand than to engage in critical thinking.



Who says I'm looking for that? Have you heard of generalizations?
You asked for it:
Some do, some don't. Have you met people?
And some people eat glass. Why does it matter what "some people" do? I was referring to just "people" as in people in general. Humans are social animals and politeness is a tool to help build social bonds.
Some people are kind, polite, and empathetic. Others aren't. Humanity, as a whole, aren't generally one or the other. There are too many factors to make a hasty generalization about that.


It's not a pejorative to the conservatives, obviously.
Same as "atheist" is not a pejorative to atheists.
Then it's not really an insult or a pejorative, is it? The term 'liberal' was considered a pejorative for both liberals and conservatives.


For some reason you have this idea that people who object to excessive PC don't like some particular marginalized group. I can't tell if that's an honest misconception or deliberate rhetoric.
Okay, show me an example of someone who really likes a marginalized group but who thinks that being differential to is excessive.
 
...What might be respect to you, might be highly offensive to others...

This reminds me of a good one.

I have always had a very nice, reclining office chair and when I'm on the phone (a lot), I like to stick my feet on the chair next to my desk and relax while I talk.

Of course, showing the soles of one's feet is offensive to many Asian people, so if I have Asian visitors around the place, I would be expected to show them the courtesy of not doing it.

However, since it's my office and if someone doesn't like something I do, people are free to leave and I stick my feet on the chair and kick back.

Some people say that's disrespectful.

I say it's bloody rude to come into my office and think you can even begin to suggest how I might behave.

Then why was the video removed?

I'm going to presume it was removed because of:

1 the enormous negative feedback.
2 they already had enough calls from Fraternities wanting to hook up with them.

I can't help wondering if they have lots of lesbians in the sorority - crikey, it looks like a supermarket for blonde babes.
 

Back
Top Bottom