Treating Other People With Respect

[TeapotCavalry]

The thing is that most criticisms that people make that people reject as political correctness are things about politeness.

Just like when you said "That is nonsensical because political correctness is used solely as a pejorative.", I said this is demonstrably false, I would here again say this is demonstrably false. Although this might be harder to prove. Take this thread - most (all?) of the criticism has been about PC, not politeness. People (me included) even tried to make it explicit that these (PC and politeness) are not terms that are interchangeable. The people who use PC as a catch-all for something they don't like or as an excuse to be rude are the minority. I can imagine it happening in youtube comments or somewhere on imageboards, and I do think it's mostly far-right leaning people who use it that way. I don't see this trend being prominent in mainstream media or culture.

Sure you get people objecting to Black Holes in astronomy because of the term, but they have basically no one else supporting nuts like them.

Apply the same rationale to your previous sentence.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not following what you're trying to say. From the start of this thread I've not seen any good examples where "political correctness" can actually be said to be about politeness.

To get to examples, are you saying that U.S. outrage over a Dutch newspaper taking a quote from a book about racism that contains the N-word, is "about politeness"?

Are you saying that rejecting the term "illegal alien" in favour of "undocumented immigrant" is "about politeness"?

Or am I misunderstanding you completely?

p.s. Oddly I do think I understand what Arthwollipot has been saying. I just think he's laughably wrong and that his approach is actively harmful to society.

That is also the only issue anyone has really put forward as an issue that is politically incorrect but polite. So given that people who don't think political correctness has anything to do with politeness, why can't they come up with a number of good examples as to why?

 

[Lorentz]

That is also the only issue anyone has really put forward as an issue that is politically incorrect but polite. So given that people who don't think political correctness has anything to do with politeness, why can't they come up with a number of good examples as to why?

How about one example where it clearly IS about politeness? I've given you two in the other direction just now.

So far I haven't seen anything to persuade me there is any connection at all between political correctness and politeness.

And what do you mean "why can't they come up with a number of good examples as to why?"?
How can you apply "why" to this question? There is no why, no reason, nothing to demonstrate. No connection.

 

[theprestige]

Sure you get people objecting to Black Holes in astronomy because of the term, but they have basically no one else supporting nuts like them.

That political correctness may be a minor affliction on the body politic does not erase the fact that it is an affliction, and that it needs to be treated as such to prevent its spread and mitigate its symptoms.

As for your idea that this is a minor affliction...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/11/naacp-urges-hallmark-pull-racist-card-shelves/

The NAACP supports nuts like John Wiley 'Black Hole, Black Whore' Price. Indeed, Price seems to have enjoyed the support of the good people of Dallas County for almost 30 years, despite (because of?) such politically correct antics as objecting to 'devil's food cake' and 'black sheep' as racist terms.

It seems that Political Correctness may have more supporters than you would prefer.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

That is also the only issue anyone has really put forward as an issue that is politically incorrect but polite. So given that people who don't think political correctness has anything to do with politeness, why can't they come up with a number of good examples as to why?

"I like drawing women/men, because female/male body is aesthetically pleasing." <--- polite, but politically incorrect.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/31/t...-illegal-alien-and-make-white-students-defer/

Why do you need more examples when only one example would already disprove your claim?

 

[ponderingturtle]

How about one example where it clearly IS about politeness? I've given you two in the other direction just now.

So far I haven't seen anything to persuade me there is any connection at all between political correctness and politeness.

And what do you mean "why can't they come up with a number of good examples as to why?"?
How can you apply "why" to this question? There is no why, no reason, nothing to demonstrate. No connection.

Sure using the chosen pronoun for a transgender person and using the name of choice for someone.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That political correctness may be a minor affliction on the body politic does not erase the fact that it is an affliction, and that it needs to be treated as such to prevent its spread and mitigate its symptoms.

As for your idea that this is a minor affliction...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/11/naacp-urges-hallmark-pull-racist-card-shelves/

The NAACP supports nuts like John Wiley 'Black Hole, Black Whore' Price. Indeed, Price seems to have enjoyed the support of the good people of Dallas County for almost 30 years, despite (because of?) such politically correct antics as objecting to 'devil's food cake' and 'black sheep' as racist terms.

It seems that Political Correctness may have more supporters than you would prefer.

So are terms like partial birth abortions also politically correct? They are terms invented solely for political means, as that has not and never was a medical term.

 

[ThunderChunky]

That is also the only issue anyone has really put forward as an issue that is politically incorrect but polite. So given that people who don't think political correctness has anything to do with politeness, why can't they come up with a number of good examples as to why?

I provided a different example but you ignored it. Uttering the n-word in a conversation about the n-word and its etymology can be done in a polite but politically incorrect way.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I provided a different example but you ignored it. Uttering the n-word in a conversation about the n-word and its etymology can be done in a polite but politically incorrect way.

Depends on how one defines politically correct.

 

[Lorentz]

Sure using the chosen pronoun for a transgender person and using the name of choice for someone.

I don't think those examples work.

Once you KNOW a transgender person has a preference for a pronoun, using that is merely polite. Politically correct is using this pronoun for all and sundry regardless of whether they are transgender and regardless of what pronouns they prefer. Referring to ME as "xe" is certainly not polite nor respectful, though it is politically correct.

Using the name of choice for someone is an example I can't even translate into real life. I'm picturing 'Call me Thargoth, Conqueror of the Seven Galaxies' here. Or are you maybe referring to names for classes of people, like calling "prostitutes" "sex workers" instead? Hmm maybe that last one works, as I think many HAVE indicated they prefer the latter. I'm unsure it is politically correct. Anyone? Has 'sex worker' become an official shibboleth yet?

 

[Lorentz]

So are terms like partial birth abortions also politically correct? They are terms invented solely for political means, as that has not and never was a medical term.

Good example, I think it checks all the boxes that matter.

 

[ThunderChunky]

So are terms like partial birth abortions also politically correct? They are terms invented solely for political means, as that has not and never was a medical term.

As far as I know the pro lifers dont demand that society uses their preferred terms (they aren't acting as "language police"), so it's not quite a parallel situation.

 

[ThunderChunky]

Depends on how one defines politically correct.

You could literally say that to any example provided, so why waste peoples' time by asking?

 

[theprestige]

Depends on how one defines politically correct.

It is to be hoped that by considering the examples provided, one may begin to gain an understanding of the definition that is meant by those providing the examples. I believe that this process of consideration and understanding is commonly understood to be a necessary component of 'good communication'

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think those examples work.

Once you KNOW a transgender person has a preference for a pronoun, using that is merely polite. Politically correct is using this pronoun for all and sundry regardless of whether they are transgender and regardless of what pronouns they prefer. Referring to ME as "xe" is certainly not polite nor respectful, though it is politically correct.

But it is something that many people complain about as being politically correct. Not recognizing their true sex as is hard coded by their biology, but acting as if this is some personal choice.

So when someone is complaining about political correctness out of control, isn't it somewhat important to know if they are talking about calling Black Holes, Black Holes, or letting transgendered people use the right bathroom?

Certainly only one of those forms of political correctness is getting laws passed about it.

 

[Upchurch]

Another perspective

Trump’s rationale for avoiding Kelly’s debate question – that neither he nor America has time for “political correctness” – taps into a popular boogeyman. The term “political correctness” is so general that to most people it simply means a discomfort with changing times and attitudes, an attack on the traditions of how we were raised. (It’s an emotional challenge every generation has had to go through.) What it really means is nothing more than sensitizing people to the fact that some old-fashioned words, attitudes and actions may be harmful or insulting to others. Naturally, people are angry about that because it makes them feel stupid or mean when they really aren’t. But when times change, we need to change with them in areas that strengthen our society.

It’s no longer “politically correct” to call African Americans “coloreds.” Or to pat a woman on the butt at work and say, “Nice job, honey.” Or to ask people their religion during a job interview. Or to deny a woman a job because she’s not attractive enough to you. Or to assume a person’s opinion is worth less because she is elderly. Or that physically challenged individuals shouldn’t have easy access to buildings. If you don’t have time for political correctness, you don’t have time to be the caretaker of our rights under the Constitution.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

It’s no longer “politically correct” to call African Americans “coloreds.” Or to pat a woman on the butt at work and say, “Nice job, honey.” Or to ask people their religion during a job interview. Or to deny a woman a job because she’s not attractive enough to you. Or to assume a person’s opinion is worth less because she is elderly. Or that physically challenged individuals shouldn’t have easy access to buildings. If you don’t have time for political correctness, you don’t have time to be the caretaker of our rights under the Constitution.

Only the first one is an example of political correctness. I don't think the author truly grasps what he's talking about, or - if we don't assume ignorance - deliberately obfuscates the meaning of PC to attack a straw man. The "popular boogeyman" is the notion that criticism of PC means conservatism or reluctance to change. Speaking of 'othering', this paints the critics as troglodytes. You'll find that most people are not against change, but are against change that is incoherent and oppressive.

Trump may very well be a troglodyte, and perhaps that's why the author is poisoning the well leading in to the topic of PC with him.

 

[Upchurch]

Only the first one is an example of political correctness.

Patting a woman on the butt at work and saying, 'Nice job, honey" isn't politically incorrect? Why not?

Or any of the other examples, for that matter?

I don't think the author truly grasps what he's talking about

To be fair, I'm not convinced that you truly grasp what you're talking about. Your definition is based purely on what you consider to be excessive. That, and some arbitrary factor that you haven't quite been able to articulate.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Patting a woman on the butt at work and saying, 'Nice job, honey" isn't politically incorrect? Why not?

Or any of the other examples, for that matter?

The real question you should be asking is whether complaining about someone patting a woman on the butt at work and saying, 'Nice job, honey" is a politically correct action. I'd answer "no".

A quick Google turns up these examples, all of which I'd consider Politically Correct. Do you think most people would agree?

1) Controversy over the use of the term "manhole" because it is sexist.

2) A school in Seattle renamed its Easter eggs 'spring spheres' to avoid causing offence to people who did not celebrate Easter.

3) Government workers in Seattle have been told that they should no longer use the words “citizen” and “brown bag” because they are potentially offensive.

4) Chris Matthews of MSNBC recently suggested that it is “racist” for conservatives to use the word “Chicago”.

 

[Upchurch]

The real question you should be asking is whether complaining about someone patting a woman on the butt at work and saying, 'Nice job, honey" is a politically correct action. I'd answer "no".

Wait, why not?