Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Trausti]

Suppose Congress decided to draft a real solution to the problem of segregation in youth sports, either by sex or by gender. What would that look like?

If its on a canvas its art. Full stop.

Why are you so obsessed with this anyway? What possible difference does it make to your life, aside from being afraid someone else somewhere in the world is thinking "wrong"?

Let's say you meet someone and date them. And you go on some dates and are having a great time and are really attracted to them and enjoy being with them and are going on about how in love with them you are.

They you discover that they are transgender.

If you think about it a while and say to them "I'm really sorry. I think you are a great person and I've really enjoyed spending time with you, but I just don't think I can properly handle this. I wish you the best and hope you find someone who can love you properly" and then you go home and you're really sad because you thought you'd found "the one" and it didn't work out, I would absolutely NOT call you bigoted. I would be inclined to console you and tell you that hey, that's a big thing to get past and its totally OK to make that decision.

If you immediately scream "YOU'RE NOT A REAL whatever gender we're talking about here!!", punch them in the face, and go home and post about how this horrible person lured you into a relationship and probably just wants help eating children (or whatever the current right-wing rage du jour claim is), I would be inclined to tell you that you absolutely are being bigoted, and a thoroughly terrible human being on top of that, and that person should thank their lucky stars to be done with you before getting in too deep.

There's an enormous range of possibilities between those two and off to either side.

TLDR: Humans are f'in complicated.

The reason some LGB what to be rid of the TQ is apparent here. Denial that attriction is sex based, not "gender" based.

 

[Paul2]

If we focused on gamete type then after menopause they are no longer female, and no one who is infertile has a sex. That simple definition always seems to be rejected despite the biological clear basis.

Sex isn't defined by having gametes, it's defined by what gamete the body is organized around producing, whether or not it so happens that it actually did or will produce it.

 

[d4m10n]

Simply make clear that Title IX has nothing to do with subjective identity.

Although this is undoubtedly true in terms of what the drafters of the law thought they were trying to do, passing a new law to that effect would require a GOP majority in the House & Senate, not to mention retaking the White House in 2024. Probably much easier & quicker to just have SCOTUS do it.

Probably a bill recognizing Trans as 3rd gender and that way force whoever runs statewide sports to offer the "fair chance to compete against similar athletes" as a separate division or something, they probably won't do it without having to.

Not trying to be difficult here, but I really don't think either progressives or conservatives would be willing to pursue this solution, for rather different reasons.

 

[smartcooky]

What if they have gone through thorough physical and hormonal transition? Is it still acceptable to reject them as not being female?

Yep!

So if the correlary is true then you would date a trans man, because to you he is a woman.

Nope! Any woman who identifies is a man is off my radar from the get-go!

 

[smartcooky]

duplicate

 

[smartcooky]

If we focused on gamete type then after menopause they are no longer female, and no one who is infertile has a sex. That simple definition always seems to be rejected despite the biological clear basis.

Nope, It doesn't work like that.

Sex isn't defined by having gametes, it's defined by what gamete the body is organized around producing, whether or not it so happens that it actually did or will produce it.

THIS! ponderingturtle's argument is false.

- If you are born with the necessary plumbing to produce ova, you are female regardless of if, when or how long during you life that you produce them.

- If you are born with the necessary plumbing to produce sperm, you are male regardless of if, when or how long during you life that you produce them.

- If you are born with neither, then whatever sex you were assigned at birth is what you are, unless the doctor concerned made a certifiable, genuine error.

The above applies to well over 99.9% of humans. Any of the miniscule percentage of cases that don't apply can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, if its even necessary.

 

[Cat Not Included]

The reason some LGB what to be rid of the TQ is apparent here. Denial that attriction is sex based, not "gender" based.

I'm trying to make sense out of that in relation to what I posted. Are you saying that scenario is implausible because a person couldn't be attracted to a trans person to begin with? I don't know what definition of "sex based" you're using, but I'm pretty sure people can be very attracted to other people even without seeing their genitals or doing a chromosome check on them.

 

[d4m10n]

If there was no surgery or hormone therapy, i would consider dating a transman, as they are physically still women.

With the added bonus that they are more willing to pick up the check when you're out on dates!

 

[theprestige]

If its on a canvas its art. Full stop.

Why are you so obsessed with this anyway? What possible difference does it make to your life, aside from being afraid someone else somewhere in the world is thinking "wrong"?

Let's say you meet someone and date them. And you go on some dates and are having a great time and are really attracted to them and enjoy being with them and are going on about how in love with them you are.

They you discover that they are transgender.

If you think about it a while and say to them "I'm really sorry. I think you are a great person and I've really enjoyed spending time with you, but I just don't think I can properly handle this. I wish you the best and hope you find someone who can love you properly" and then you go home and you're really sad because you thought you'd found "the one" and it didn't work out, I would absolutely NOT call you bigoted. I would be inclined to console you and tell you that hey, that's a big thing to get past and its totally OK to make that decision.

Why is "properly handle this" the rubric?

Suppose you're a lady that's sexually attracted to other ladies. Dick doesn't do it for you at all. You meet someone who appears to be an attractive lady, you hit it off, you end up heading for the bedroom. And it turns out this lady has a dick. What's to "properly handle" here? Just tell them you're not sexually attracted to dick, and that you think they should have been upfront about their transgender status much earlier in the relationship. Then you leave and never look back.

If you immediately scream "YOU'RE NOT A REAL whatever gender we're talking about here!!",

Which they're not.

punch them in the face, and go home and post about how this horrible person lured you into a relationship and probably just wants help eating children (or whatever the current right-wing rage du jour claim is),

The actual "current right-wing rage du jour claim" (as you imagine it) is that chicks with dicks should (a) be up front with their prospective sexual partners about it, (b) should not hold it against any such prospective partner who complains about a bait-and-switch, and (c) that chicks with dicks who dismiss (a) and (b) as valid concerns are dicks as well as having them.

I would be inclined to tell you that you absolutely are being bigoted, and a thoroughly terrible human being on top of that, and that person should thank their lucky stars to be done with you before getting in too deep.

It's easy to tell someone they're a bigot when your judgement is based entirely on your fantasy about them and their concerns.

There's an enormous range of possibilities between those two and off to either side.

It'd be nice if you discussed some of the ones that were more plausible.

TLDR: Humans are f'in complicated.

In a lot of ways, yes. But binary sex isn't really one of them. Neither is sexual attraction.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The reason some LGB what to be rid of the TQ is apparent here. Denial that attriction is sex based, not "gender" based.

The very idea behind the epithet "trap" contradicts this. If that was the case no heterosexual man would ever be upset that the woman he was attracted to was trans, because clearly he was never attracted to her in the first place.

 

[theprestige]

The very idea behind the epithet "trap" contradicts this. If that was the case no heterosexual man would ever be upset that the woman he was attracted to was trans, because clearly he was never attracted to her in the first place.

A lot of men can pass as (attractive) women with some effort put into makeup and wardrobe, favorable lighting conditions, and a cooperative audience.

Just because a man is fooled at first glance by someone who is intentionally trying to fool them, that doesn't mean he's morally or biologically required to continue feeling attraction when the mask drops.

There's a reason the term is "trap" and not "pleasant surprise".

 

[d4m10n]

Suppose you're a lady that's sexually attracted to other ladies. Dick doesn't do it for you at all. You meet someone who appears to be an attractive lady, you hit it off, you end up heading for the bedroom. And it turns out this lady has a dick. What's to "properly handle" here? Just tell them you're not sexually attracted to dick, and that you think they should have been upfront about their transgender status much earlier in the relationship.

While I'm sure some old-school female cisgender lesbians really would play it that way, Natalie Reed makes the argument that this approach is in fact oppressive and transphobic.

The refusal of lesbians to consider us viable sexual partners, or their seeing intimacy with us as somehow a threat to their lesbian identification...is to ultimately...assert that beneath whatever lip-service you’ve paid to the legitimacy of our identity you simply don’t really regard us as women. At least not fully so.

https://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/04/04/caught-up-in-cotton/

ETA: I'm bringing this argument up once again because I doubt my own ability (as a gender skeptical male) to steelman Why We Must Penetrate the Cotton Ceiling for Great Social Justice but it's been done elsewhere by people who are sincere and articulate and also happen to inhabit the correct positionality for the PoMo types who consider that vital.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Let's say you meet someone and date them. And you go on some dates and are having a great time and are really attracted to them and enjoy being with them and are going on about how in love with them you are.

They you discover that they are transgender.

If you think about it a while and say to them "I'm really sorry. I think you are a great person and I've really enjoyed spending time with you, but I just don't think I can properly handle this. I wish you the best and hope you find someone who can love you properly."

So show of hands. Who thinks the above described sequence of events would be bigoted toward the trans person?

And this is not bait, setup, or gotcha I'm honestly curious.

 

[theprestige]

While I'm sure some old-school female cisgender lesbians really would play it that way, Natalie Reed makes the argument that this approach is in fact oppressive and transphobic.

https://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/04/04/caught-up-in-cotton/

ETA: I'm bringing this argument up once again because I doubt my own ability (as a gender skeptical male) to steelman Why We Must Penetrate the Cotton Ceiling for Great Social Justice but it's been done elsewhere by people who are sincere and articulate and also happen to inhabit the correct positionality for the PoMo types who consider that vital.

I'm not sure delusions count as arguments.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm not sure delusions count as arguments.

If you can find a less delusional argument for why lesbians need to take a long, hard look at girldick, I'm here for it.

 

[d4m10n]

Who thinks the above described sequence of events would be bigoted toward the trans person?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Expand.

 

[d4m10n]

Expand.

No thanks.

You asked for a show of hands; since I'm the only one to weigh in so far, it seems premature to start making arguments.

 

[Hercules56]

So show of hands. Who thinks the above described sequence of events would be bigoted toward the trans person?

And this is not bait, setup, or gotcha I'm honestly curious.

No song and dance needed.

Upon discovery that she is really not exactly a she, a simple "sorry, but this just isn't gonna work out for me" is all that's necessary.

If "she" persists, a more forceful "sorry, but this just ain't for me, I wish you the best of luck.

Some may call the guy a bigot, and that's fine. Such views can be easily and intelligently disregarded. When it comes to issues of romance and love, we have certain privileges and discriminatory discretion that employers, teachers, store owners, landlords do NOT. That goes for people who dont want to date trans, Gays, Jews, Muslims, Christians, whites, blacks, etc, whatever.

 

[Trausti]

So show of hands. Who thinks the above described sequence of events would be bigoted toward the trans person?

And this is not bait, setup, or gotcha I'm honestly curious.

This framing is odd; as if the trans-identified person who tricked their date is the victim.