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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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ponderingturtle said:
Imagine finding out the girl you were into is really Jewish even if she doesn't look Jewish! The rage there is understandable and clearly not an indicator of antisemitism.
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I'm always a bit tickled when people who reject the validity of transracialism bring up racial analogies in trans rights threads. It's like you must already know that race and sex don't analogize in at least some significant ways (e.g. sex is ineluctable and biological in terms of gametes, race is a socially constructed intersubjective fiction with incredibly blurry edges) but you're not going to let that slow you down.

Or did you mean Jewish as a religion?

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Hercules56 said:
Nothing wrong with wanting to create a Christian family that maintains Christian values.

Same for Jews or Muslims or atheists.

Just as there is nothing wrong with not wanting to date transgender persons. It is surely not an act of bigotry.
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So it is right to be upset that the jewess did not disclose her Jewish news early enough?

What about black people who can pass as white?

It is really much more complicated. The rejection can certainly be based on bigotry just like the shock that she is Jewish can be as well. Just like guys can totally be rightly rejected for having a penis the wrong shape or size. Detailed information on your genitals should be right there on your dating profile.

This becomes a question of how much personal information one is entitled to, how much medical information someone is entitled to when dating. Imagine some sterile man trying to pass themselves off as a real man and not being upfront at the beginning that they are a failure at their biological duty as a male. That is certainly a not at all discriminatory reason to refuse to date someone, yet people seem to think demanding this information is wrong.
 
Hercules56 said:
So you think it IS bigotry to refuse to date a transgender woman?

Fascinating. My view? People have the right to make all sorts of choices regarding who they date and it's really none of our business to judge.
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But it's not a dating question. It's a simple "do you really believe that a trans is who they say they are, or is it fine in the abstract but hard pass in the real world? Basically it's a litmus test for those who say trans women are real women. Do they walk it like they talk it?
 
Every 3rd thread started here is just bait to just restart the "Are transgender women women or not?" discussion for the 50th time.
 
d4m10n said:
I'm always a bit tickled when people who reject the validity of transracialism bring up racial analogies in trans rights threads. It's like you must already know that race and sex don't analogize in at least some significant ways (e.g. sex is ineluctable and biological in terms of gametes, race is a socially constructed intersubjective fiction with incredibly blurry edges) but you're not going to let that slow you down.

Or did you mean Jewish as a religion?

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So as a biological essentialist straight men are obligated to date trans men.
 
Thermal said:
But it's not a dating question. It's a simple "do you really believe that a trans is who they say they are, or is it fine in the abstract but hard pass in the real world? Basically it's a litmus test for those who say trans women are real women. Do they walk it like they talk it?
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Agreed. If you are a straight guy or lesbian who on principle will not date a transgender woman, you are basically saying you do not believe them to be true women.

Its a cruel world.
 
ponderingturtle said:
So as a biological essentialist straight men are obligated to date trans men.
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Even assuming that biological influences precede and limit cultural influences, nothing follows about who should be dating whom. You've leapt the is-ought gap without even looking first.
 
Olmstead said:
Obviously men are just very ugly women. And vice versa, I suppose. Nothing a few hours under the scalpel can't fix. It's hard to live disfigured.

There's no such thing as lesbian or gay. Lesbians just don't want to date very ugly women, and gay men don't want to date very ugly men.
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I have nothing on principle against dating an ugly woman. Even a really ugly woman. But I will not date a transwoman. Sorry.
 
d4m10n said:
https://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/04/04/caught-up-in-cotton/
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This is probably the most thoughtful post in the thread so far, but I think there is a quote even more on point:
And to be honest, saying as a blanket statement that you have no interest in sleeping with any trans women ever IS a transphobic statement. As I’ve talked about before, there really isn’t any universal or consistent outward trait common to all trans women. Logically, one can’t possibly experience a basic sexual attraction to cis women but not trans women, at least not while claiming that supposed lack of attraction has anything to do with trans women and trans bodies. It’s about how you perceive trans women. What you’re “not attracted to” is women you KNOW are trans, the IDEA of trans women, the CONCEPT. Which is inherently tied into cultural perceptions. You’d have the same reaction to a cis woman claiming to be trans as you would to an actual trans woman. It’s about your perceptions, not our bodies.
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I get what Reed is saying here. I can't say that, just because I'm a cis het man, I'm attracted to every woman ever. I'm not. Likewise, I really can't say that I'll never be attracted to a trans-woman. In fact, I have seen some very attractive trans-women in the past. The point is largely moot for me now, as I'm happily married and have no intention on dating anyone besides my wife. Still, this is a good article. Very thought provoking.

Tying it back to what I was saying before, I was thinking that evaluating attraction would happen on an individual basis, which I feel is in keeping with what Reed is saying, but I guess I was assuming that if a person generally did not find one group attractive, it would be likely that they would find no one from that group attractive. Or, at least, I wasn't challenging anyone who was making that that assumption.

Yeah, that was a good article to throw into this thread. I'm going to go back and re-read it when I have more time.
 
Hercules56 said:
I have nothing on principle against dating an ugly woman. Even a really ugly woman. But I will not date a transwoman. Sorry.
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'If I wouldn't date them, they aren't a woman' is really messed up reasoning to throw out there Oedipus.
 
Hercules56 said:
what are your thoughts on this?

A 2018 study showed that only 1.8 percent of straight women and 3.3 percent of straight men would date a transgender person. A small minority of cisgender lesbians (29 percent) and gays (11.5 percent) would be willing.


Are these vast majorities of straight and gay men and women, bigots?
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Post a link so I can look at that "study", that's what my thought is.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Post a link so I can look at that "study", that's what my thought is.
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Again, the connection here seems to be 'if they won't date them, it's because they're not really men/women' but that's not what the question asks. I wouldn't date a cop, but it doesn't follow that I therefore don't think cops are women. I just don't want our handcuffs mixed up.
 
tyr_13 said:
'If I wouldn't date them, they aren't a woman' is really messed up reasoning to throw out there Oedipus.
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Never said that. You are more than welcome to see them as physical women. It's my choice not to, and that does not make me a bigot.
 
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Hercules56 said:
Never said that. You are more than welcome to see them as physical women. It's my choice not to, and that does not make me a bigot.
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The only way your cited sources could support your argument would be to say that. You are admitting your sources don't support your claim.
 
Upchurch said:
The point is largely moot for me now, as I'm happily married and have no intention on dating anyone besides my wife.
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Assuming you intend to remain monogamous, does this imply "that you have no interest in sleeping with any trans women ever," as Reed put it? As a monogamous person I'm in the same boat here, so I need to know how we can get out from the gloomy penumbra of transphobia.
 
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tyr_13 said:
'If I wouldn't date them, they aren't a woman' is really messed up reasoning to throw out there Oedipus.
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While I get your point, the question of whether or not a trans woman is considered a "full-fledged" woman is fair, I think.

If you consider a trans woman to be a woman, right up to the point where what being a man or woman is biologically all about, it speaks to just how "real" we mean when we say "real".

If you really believe a trans woman is a woman, and you are into women, the specific makeup of their junk shouldn't impact whether you are attracted to them.
 
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