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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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As a handy aide-memoire, here is a list of mainstream medical institutions operating within the USA which actively support transgender identity and the affirmation of transgender people (in alphabetical order):

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Dermatology
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Nursing
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Physician Assistants
American College Health Association
American College of Nurse-Midwives
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
American College of Physicians
American Counseling Association
American Heart Association
American Medical Association
American Medical Student Association
American Nurses Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Public Health Association
American Society of Plastic Surgeons
Endocrine Society
GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality
National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health
National Association of Social Workers
National Commission on Correctional Health Care
Pediatric Endocrine Society
Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine
World Medical Association
World Professional Association for Transgender Health


And here is a list of US-operating mainstream medical institutions which oppose transgender identity and the affirmation of transgender people (in alphabetical order):



**tumbleweed**



This is interesting and educative, I think.
 
As a handy aide-memoire, here is a list of mainstream medical institutions operating within the USA which actively support transgender identity and the affirmation of transgender people (in alphabetical order):

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Dermatology
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Nursing
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Physician Assistants
American College Health Association
American College of Nurse-Midwives
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
American College of Physicians
American Counseling Association
American Heart Association
American Medical Association
American Medical Student Association
American Nurses Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Public Health Association
American Society of Plastic Surgeons
Endocrine Society
GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality
National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health
National Association of Social Workers
National Commission on Correctional Health Care
Pediatric Endocrine Society
Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine
World Medical Association
World Professional Association for Transgender Health


And here is a list of US-operating mainstream medical institutions which oppose transgender identity and the affirmation of transgender people (in alphabetical order):



**tumbleweed**



This is interesting and educative, I think.

Source? Lists without any attribution are worth dismissing.
 
For those who might not be aware, Spain is the latest country to have enacted progressive legislation regarding self-ID for transgender people:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64666356

As Spain's equalities minister Irene Montero (a ciswoman, note) rightly said in parliament:

"trans people are not sick people, they are just people".


The vote passed by a very large majority - 191 to 60. And of course it goes without saying that many of those 191 were ciswomen. I'm guessing that those women are neither "captured" nor "handmaids" nor "misogynistic".

Germany and The Netherlands are both likely to pass similar legislation later this year, with more countries to follow. All of which is excellent, progressive news. It does seem interesting that increasing numbers of liberal, centrist or left-wing legislatures around the world are (proportionately) enshrining transgender rights in law.... while the only countries/jurisdictions which are not in favour of basic transgender rights appear to be those where reactionary right-wing political groups (many of which are also heavily permeated by religious dogma) hold the balance of power.
 
Source? Lists without any attribution are worth dismissing.


I mean, it would be awfully strange if I just pulled a list like that out of my fundament, wouldn't it?

But anyhow:

https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

And you can double-check this against each individual organisation, if you should feel so inclined. It's pretty simple to check the position of each of these institutions.


Here's some additional relevant information:

https://www.glaad.org/blog/medical-...s-youth-healthcare-and-against-discriminatory


It's factually correct to state that every significant public-health-related entity is positively affirmative of transgender identity. That's important and revealing.
 
Yeah I support those too.
What counts as a failure to support the "affirmation of transgender people" for our purposes here? For example, if someone were to say that Lia Thomas does not legitimately hold the women's 200-yard freestyle record in the Ivy League (on account of the unfair advantages granted her by the experience of male puberty) would that be considered disaffirming?
 
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I mean, it would be awfully strange if I just pulled a list like that out of my fundament, wouldn't it?

But anyhow:

https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

From your source:

TLDEF said:
Leading medical groups recognize the medical necessity of treatments for gender dysphoria and endorse such treatments.

Gender dysphoria is a disorder. That's why it requires treatments.

Oops.

No statement here about what to do with the "valid lived identities" of trans people without gender dysphoria, and whether or not they need medical treatment. Also nothing in here about the myriad other trans issues we've discussed.
 
What counts as a failure to support the "affirmation of transgender people" for our purposes here?
I think that depends on who you ask. Each of the organisations listed in the post above may have a different interpretation, with maybe some core basics.

if someone were to say that Lia Thomas does not legitimately hold the women's 200-yard freestyle record in the Ivy League (on account of the unfair advantages granted her by the experience of male puberty) would that be considered disaffirming?
I don't see anything about inclusion in women's swimming leagues in the position statements on transgender issues linked in post 30. So one would have to quiz them specifically (unless I missed it)
 
I mean, it would be awfully strange if I just pulled a list like that out of my fundament, wouldn't it?

But anyhow:

https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

And you can double-check this against each individual organisation, if you should feel so inclined. It's pretty simple to check the position of each of these institutions.


Here's some additional relevant information:

https://www.glaad.org/blog/medical-...s-youth-healthcare-and-against-discriminatory


It's factually correct to state that every significant public-health-related entity is positively affirmative of transgender identity. That's important and revealing.

No, it’s factually correct to state that US medical organisations are heavily promoting medical transition for gender dysphoria, including for minors.
What is informative and revealing is to look at the actual evidence based behind recommendations.

For example, the fact that a fact-check of the AAP's position statement on gender affirmation for children and adolescents shows that none of the citations provided support the claims made, and many outright contradict the claims. Which has, of course, already been discussed on previous versions of this thread.

This is supported by Cantor’s analysis and is easily verified.
Transgender and Gender Diverse Children and Adolescents: Fact-Checking of AAP Policy (ohchr.org)

For example, and AAP claims that conversion therapy for gender identity in minors is demonstrated to be harmful, citing six sources. Cantor (pp2-4) goes through each of these citations in turn and shows that the ones discussing conversion therapy do not mention gender identity, and the ones that do mention gender identity do not mention conversion therapy. The exception is one source that covers both sexual orientation and ‘gender discordance’, but in that case the AAP completely misrepresents the claims made. This was a publication by the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (AACAP), which recommended watchful waiting and took a neutral position on endorsing medical treatment for childhood dysphoria due to lack of evidence. The AAP misrepresented the AACAP by implying they endorsed affirmation, and that they rejected conversion therapy for gender identity, when they only discussed it in relation to sexual orientation. The concept of conversion therapy for gender identity has no definition and makes no sense because most children with gender dysphoria spontaneously re-identify as their natal sex at puberty if not affirmed and transitioned.

The AAP also claimed that delaying any form of transition before puberty is ‘arbitrary’, but the sources cited to support this actually state clearly that puberty is a pivotal point for desistence of gender dysphoria. Again the citations do not support the claims. The AAP document implies that previous studies showing most children desist after puberty are flawed, but provides no evidence. All of the criticisms of these studies by activists have been addressed, but these rebuttals are never cited.

As Cantor (p6)states

"In its policy statement, AAP told neither the truth nor the whole truth, committing sins both of commission and of omission, asserting claims easily falsified by anyone caring to do any fact-checking at all."

".... AAP’s statement is a systematic exclusion and misrepresentation of entire literatures. Not only did AAP fail to provide compelling evidence, it
failed to provide the evidence at all. Indeed, AAP’s recommendations are despite the existing evidence"

Also informative is that countries such as Sweden and Finland (and of course the UK) have now abandoned WPATH’s standards of care for treatment of gender dysphoria in minors. Every country that has conducted an independent review of the evidence for these treatments has changed course. The US is now an outlier in this.
 
From your source:



Gender dysphoria is a disorder. That's why it requires treatments.

Oops.

No statement here about what to do with the "valid lived identities" of trans people without gender dysphoria, and whether or not they need medical treatment. Also nothing in here about the myriad other trans issues we've discussed.


Oops indeed.

We have covered this misunderstanding many, many times already. Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental health disorder (although of course DSM5 puts it in a separate class to most other disorders, for obvious reasons). It's experienced by some - but not all - people with transgender identity. It's to do with the internal struggle, usually pre-transition, which some transgender people experience around the conflict between their trans gender and the gender that matches their sex assigned at birth (along with associated anxieties over things such as how their trans gender might be viewed by the likes of family, friends, employers etc, or how society at large views transgender identity).

But that, obviously, is a completely different (though consequential) condition from transgender identity itself. Which is now viewed by mainstream medicine and medical science as NOT a mental health disorder. All of the medical institutions in my list subscribe unequivocally to that understanding.

Now, transgender identity denialists would say that on top of gender dysphoria being a mental health disorder, transgender identity itself is a mental health disorder. Such people believe that there's no such thing as valid transgender identity: that all those "claiming" transgender identity are actually mentally ill. Such people subscribe to the theory that the core matter of transgender identity is an illness requiring diagnosis and remedial/"curative" treatment.

However mainstream medicine (including all of the institutions in my list), while believing that gender dysphoria requires diagnosis and treatment, believes in the affirmation model for transgender identity: in other words, if a person presents to a medical professional with gender dysphoria, and once that disorder has been diagnosed, the correct treatment in most cases is 1) an affirmation of the person's transgender identity and 2) therapeutic treatments to help the person resolve the conflict between their transgender identity and the gender matching their sex assigned at birth.

And to date, no significant institution/body in any liberal democracy (nor any supranatural body, eg the WHO) has either questioned the validity of transgender identity or questioned the efficacy/validity of the affirmative model (which, of course, necessarily implies a belief in the validity of transgender identity itself).

I for one feel extremely comfortable sharing my stance on transgender identity with a) the organisations which determined the validity of transgender identity and b) all the medical institutions - with no dissent - which also believe in the validity of transgender identity (and thus the affirmation approach to treating gender dysphoria). I'm more than content to align with the science and with the extremely strong medical consensus.
 
What counts as a failure to support the "affirmation of transgender people" for our purposes here? For example, if someone were to say that Lia Thomas does not legitimately hold the women's 200-yard freestyle record in the Ivy League (on account of the unfair advantages granted her by the experience of male puberty) would that be considered disaffirming?


It appears that you are posing a completely unrelated question here.

Lia Thomas (for example) is a transwoman. Mainstream medicine considers her to be a woman. The question around whether (and under which circumstances) transwomen should be allowed to compete in men's sports, or whether (and under which circumstances) transwomen should be granted access to certain women's spaces (eg prisons, bathroom facilities) is an entirely different matter from any question about the validity of transgender identity itself.

But no, it is not disaffirming to exclude certain transwomen from certain classes of women's activities (eg sports), and nor is it disaffirming to exclude certain transwomen from certain women's spaces (eg bathrooms).
 
I don't see anything about inclusion in women's swimming leagues in the position statements on transgender issues linked in post 30.
That's basically what I'm getting at here. OP was about inclusion in a competition for female weightlifters, but the position statements of medical associations give us no guidance on that. Same goes for other single-sex services, spaces, and leagues.



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It appears that you are posing a completely unrelated question here.

Lia Thomas (for example) is a transwoman. Mainstream medicine considers her to be a woman. The question around whether (and under which circumstances) transwomen should be allowed to compete in men's sports, or whether (and under which circumstances) transwomen should be granted access to certain women's spaces (eg prisons, bathroom facilities) is an entirely different matter from any question about the validity of transgender identity itself.

But no, it is not disaffirming to exclude certain transwomen from certain classes of women's activities (eg sports), and nor is it disaffirming to exclude certain transwomen from certain women's spaces (eg bathrooms).
So trans women are not women?
 
Oops indeed.

We have covered this misunderstanding many, many times already. Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental health disorder (although of course DSM5 puts it in a separate class to most other disorders, for obvious reasons). It's experienced by some - but not all - people with transgender identity. It's to do with the internal struggle, usually pre-transition, which some transgender people experience around the conflict between their trans gender and the gender that matches their sex assigned at birth (along with associated anxieties over things such as how their trans gender might be viewed by the likes of family, friends, employers etc, or how society at large views transgender identity).

But that, obviously, is a completely different (though consequential) condition from transgender identity itself. Which is now viewed by mainstream medicine and medical science as NOT a mental health disorder. All of the medical institutions in my list subscribe unequivocally to that understanding.

Now, transgender identity denialists would say that on top of gender dysphoria being a mental health disorder, transgender identity itself is a mental health disorder. Such people believe that there's no such thing as valid transgender identity: that all those "claiming" transgender identity are actually mentally ill. Such people subscribe to the theory that the core matter of transgender identity is an illness requiring diagnosis and remedial/"curative" treatment.

However mainstream medicine (including all of the institutions in my list), while believing that gender dysphoria requires diagnosis and treatment, believes in the affirmation model for transgender identity: in other words, if a person presents to a medical professional with gender dysphoria, and once that disorder has been diagnosed, the correct treatment in most cases is 1) an affirmation of the person's transgender identity and 2) therapeutic treatments to help the person resolve the conflict between their transgender identity and the gender matching their sex assigned at birth.
And to date, no significant institution/body in any liberal democracy (nor any supranatural body, eg the WHO) has either questioned the validity of transgender identity or questioned the efficacy/validity of the affirmative model (which, of course, necessarily implies a belief in the validity of transgender identity itself).

I for one feel extremely comfortable sharing my stance on transgender identity with a) the organisations which determined the validity of transgender identity and b) all the medical institutions - with no dissent - which also believe in the validity of transgender identity (and thus the affirmation approach to treating gender dysphoria). I'm more than content to align with the science and with the extremely strong medical consensus.

The highlighted is how Tavistock operated. And yet……

Any comments on Tavistock, once the most significant medical authority on the treatment of transgender people?
 
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