Transgender man gives birth

[sylvan8798]

The point is that sometimes circumstances, sheer chance and /or choices made equal bad situations. If those conspired to cause any individual to be forced to stay at home I would feel badly for that person, but I would expect them to understand the whole world isn't going to change to accommodate them.

And if they didn't "understand" and ignored you? Then what?

ETA: Somewhere around 1-2% of the US population not in institutions uses a wheelchair, yet we've gone a long ways to accommodate them so their circumstances, chance, or choices don't force them to stay at home.

 

[DragonLady]

And if they didn't "understand" and ignored you? Then what?

I guess they can try to convince the world otherwise....

'tis okay...I've been thinking that if anyone can use whatever washroom they want to use, even at the expense of everyone around them, there's plenty of other people who can benefit from that precedent.

There are plenty of convicted drunk drivers who've never hurt anyone, but who should now be given their keys back because their inconvenience at being forced to walk to work should trump the fears of other drivers and pedestrians who have to share the road with them.

There are plenty of people with drastic medical issues, who should be able to demand that concert halls and ball parks install special medical units for them, so they can watch the big game just like everybody else. After all, their special needs trump every other consideration, right?

Just give me a few hours to think about it...I'm seeing all kinds of opportunities for people who would other wise be encumbered by the natural consequences of poor choices, and even more who are simply the victims of circumstance.

To think that for all those years the world refused to stop for them, but we're gonna show 'em now!

Every corner is gonna be padded so blind folks never get bruised. Every addict will be given free needles, and free drugs too! Their feelings trump every one else's, and no one will be happier to hear it!

 

[qayak]

I guess they can try to convince the world otherwise....

'tis okay...I've been thinking that if anyone can use whatever washroom they want to use, even at the expense of everyone around them, there's plenty of other people who can benefit from that precedent.

There are plenty of convicted drunk drivers who've never hurt anyone, but who should now be given their keys back because their inconvenience at being forced to walk to work should trump the fears of other drivers and pedestrians who have to share the road with them.

There are plenty of people with drastic medical issues, who should be able to demand that concert halls and ball parks install special medical units for them, so they can watch the big game just like everybody else. After all, their special needs trump every other consideration, right?

Just give me a few hours to think about it...I'm seeing all kinds of opportunities for people who would other wise be encumbered by the natural consequences of poor choices, and even more who are simply the victims of circumstance.

To think that for all those years the world refused to stop for them, but we're gonna show 'em now!

Every corner is gonna be padded so blind folks never get bruised. Every addict will be given free needles, and free drugs too! Their feelings trump every one else's, and no one will be happier to hear it!

On a recent road trip with my wife we stopped for fuel and to use the facilities in some backwater town in Alberta. The men's washroom had a lineup so I walked straight into the women's. When I came out one of the guys in the line up said, "That's not right!"

I looked at him and said, "I'm trans gendered and if you had half a brain right now you would be too. Regardless, you got here long before me and I am on the road long before you."

At this point my wife walked up and went into the women's washroom saying "I'll be there in a minute, sweety."

I looked back at the guy and said, "Wow! I never knew he was trans gendered too!"

 

[Delphic Oracle]

'tis okay...I've been thinking that if anyone can use whatever washroom they want to use, even at the expense of everyone around them, there's plenty of other people who can benefit from that precedent.

Cue up inherently denigrating analogies...

There are plenty of convicted drunk drivers who've never hurt anyone, but who should now be given their keys back because their inconvenience at being forced to walk to work should trump the fears of other drivers and pedestrians who have to share the road with them.

Drunk driving puts other motorists at risk of injuries and death and specifically because of the motorist.

Is there a similar statistic for transgender bathroom err....accidents?

No. So trying to put the kind of self-centered reckless endangerment of others up as a comparison is patently insulting.

There are plenty of people with drastic medical issues, who should be able to demand that concert halls and ball parks install special medical units for them, so they can watch the big game just like everybody else. After all, their special needs trump every other consideration, right?

A transgender person does not require physical changes to the bathroom or other facilities. Besides, if those changes don't obstruct or alter the experience for others, what is there to object?

Just give me a few hours to think about it...I'm seeing all kinds of opportunities for people who would other wise be encumbered by the natural consequences of poor choices, and even more who are simply the victims of circumstance.

Will they all have less to do with making your point and more about pejorative imagery like these comparisons always do?

Every corner is gonna be padded so blind folks never get bruised.

The pulse noise at crosswalks has actually been a great program.

Every addict will be given free needles, and free drugs too!

Countries that do that find lower crime rates, successfully treated addictions, lower overdose (and poisoning) rates, and other positive health factors.

So actually yes to that one, too.

Their feelings trump every one else's, and no one will be happier to hear it!

No, rational observation and science trumped "OMG DRUGS WILL MAKE NEGROS RAPE YOU WHITE WIMINZ!"



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[qayak]

A transgender person does not require physical changes to the bathroom or other facilities. Besides, if those changes don't obstruct or alter the experience for others, what is there to object?

That depends on who you talk to. Many trans gendered people have stated they want their own seperate bathroom equal in size and amenities to the other genders' bathrooms at the same location because it is the only way they will feel "safe." That obviously requires extensive, often impossible, renovations to buildings.

If all it takes is for them to use the washroom of their choice I say take the gender specific signs off the doors and replace them with ones that say "washroom."

At that point businesses can choose to renovate and turn one of the washrooms into usable commercial space.

 

[Belz...]

No, you've made it clear that an interpretation, no matter how absurd, must be validated and given consideration.

Well, since you brought it up, it seems that another thing blowhards do is insist that not only is their twisted interpretation correct, but that it's the only possible one, brought about by the other poster's fault.

I've given you a chance to be reasonable but you insist on being confrontational and silly. That's on you, not me.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Well, since you brought it up, it seems that another thing blowhards do is insist that not only is their twisted interpretation correct, but that it's the only possible one, brought about by the other poster's fault.

Yes, I do find that similar to the way people blame their bigoted feelings on the very target of those feelings.

I've given you a chance to be reasonable but you insist on being confrontational and silly. That's on you, not me.

What I find even more interesting is how fast someone who does that will go ******* when it's done to them...

...yet still not seem to get it.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

That depends on who you talk to. Many trans gendered people have stated they want their own seperate bathroom equal in size and amenities to the other genders' bathrooms at the same location because it is the only way they will feel "safe." That obviously requires extensive, often impossible, renovations to buildings.

If all it takes is for them to use the washroom of their choice I say take the gender specific signs off the doors and replace them with ones that say "washroom."

At that point businesses can choose to renovate and turn one of the washrooms into usable commercial space.

I'll show my capacity for consistency here. Separate washrooms because of fear is right out for the same reason. It would quickly become 2 more sets, for even further absurdity.

Personally I'm all for unisex. But clearly we're a ways of from seeing the maturity needed for that.

 

[applecorped]

...yet still not seem to get it.

 

[DragonLady]

It would quickly become 2 more sets, for even further absurdity.

Exactly.

Then, another tiny special interest group will demand their own concessions, and another will step to the plate after that.

If the convenience and feelings of one small group is able to trump every other consideration, where do you really believe that will end?

I don't believe for a moment the vast majority of Americans want unisex washrooms. If they did, it would've been a far more popular option from the onset, because building two has always been twice as expensive.

We separate the sexes, and that has been good enough for a very long time. While I have no problem with making reasonable accommodation for those with special needs, I do not think they have the right to demand concessions while failing to address and take steps to remedy the impact of those concessions on others.

It really doesn't matter to me if we're talking about transgenderism or any other special interest. What matters to me is that we don't trade the 'tyranny of the majority' for the 'tyranny of the minority' and end up with far more people feeling abused and afraid to speak up for fear of being branded as bigots or told their feelings aren't just as valid as everyone else's.

 

[The Big Dog]

By the way, having not been here the whole thread did the Mother in the headline give birth in a bathroom or something?

 

[sylvan8798]

I guess they can try to convince the world otherwise....

'tis okay...I've been thinking that if anyone can use whatever washroom they want to use, even at the expense of everyone around them, there's plenty of other people who can benefit from that precedent.

There are plenty of convicted drunk drivers who've never hurt anyone, but who should now be given their keys back because their inconvenience at being forced to walk to work should trump the fears of other drivers and pedestrians who have to share the road with them.

There are plenty of people with drastic medical issues, who should be able to demand that concert halls and ball parks install special medical units for them, so they can watch the big game just like everybody else. After all, their special needs trump every other consideration, right?

Just give me a few hours to think about it...I'm seeing all kinds of opportunities for people who would other wise be encumbered by the natural consequences of poor choices, and even more who are simply the victims of circumstance.

I'm failing to see how these things are comparable.

To think that for all those years the world refused to stop for them,

Were things better then? For the disabled? For the blind? For the deaf? For children with learning disabilities? For the mentally ill? For gays? For blacks?

Or just for you?

Every corner is gonna be padded so blind folks never get bruised. Every addict will be given free needles, and free drugs too! Their feelings trump every one else's, and no one will be happier to hear it!

We do make accommodations for the blind, as well as a lot of other groups. Do you object to those as well?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

But again, it isn't "convenience and feelings trumping every other consideration." At least it is no more so one way than the other. The only defense offered to tip those particular scales is appeal to tradition.

Tradition can shove it. Not good enough.

You enter the restroom you feel comfortable entering. That's all they want, too.

Some of them are wary of you, you're wary of some of them.

Sounds pretty damn equal.



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[Delphic Oracle]

The Romans had mixed bathhouses by the 1st century. These were serious centers of social life. Affairs of state were discussed and commerce bargained over in these places. In fact, one of the quirks of the setting was that once you'd taken off your purple-lined toga or commoner's rags, everyone was a lot more alike and all were welcome to bathe, discuss issues of the day, and otherwise exist as peers.

Public baths are not private baths. I would dare say attempts to engage in gate-keeping around communal spaces is the attitude in stark contrast to the arc of history.

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[Belz...]

Yes, I do find that similar to the way people blame their bigoted feelings on the very target of those feelings.

No one's done that here. If you were able to tell apples from ceiling fans you'd have discerned that by now.

Now, do you intend on continuing to play games, or are you going to engage in a discussion?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

By the way, having not been here the whole thread did the Mother in the headline give birth in a bathroom or something?

No. Just that "segregated facilities" has become the proxy battleground for civil rights issues in the U.S.

For all the eye-rolling injuries that might cause, it's a few steps up from church bombings and water cannons, so we're improving.

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[DreamingNaiad]

...



It really doesn't matter to me if we're talking about transgenderism or any other special interest. What matters to me is that we don't trade the 'tyranny of the majority' for the 'tyranny of the minority' and end up with far more people feeling abused and afraid to speak up for fear of being branded as bigots or told their feelings aren't just as valid as everyone else's.

Why would you feel 'abused' if you urinate in a room which might contain a penis? Should the entire building be cleared of penises too? Is there an ideal penis-free radius here or is it the number of doors between them and your vagina that matters?

So confused.

 

[cullennz]

I think we all know that uni-sex toilets are just being demanded as a form of discrimmination against males.

A pent up hatred that we don't have to line up as much

 

[BStrong]

I have read there are some municipalities that will charge you with sexual harrassment if you intentionally use the "wrong" pronoun when discussing a transgender employee or co-worker.


If transgender men can still become pregnant and bring a healthy child to term, its simply absurd for it to be a crime for me to refer to such person as a "she".

As far as I am concerned only a "she" can become pregnant and gestate a fetus.

Sorry for sounding "bigoted".

NYC has such a statute in their municipal code, but iirc it's limited to employers/employees.

As a practical matter, why not simply use the golden rule - treat others the way you wish to be treated?

I see no issues in addressing someone as they want to be addressed. I've dealt with incidents otj involving transgender folks, both as actors and victims, never had an issue with using their preferred pronoun if they made it known.

 

[Belz...]

Why would you feel 'abused' if you urinate in a room which might contain a penis?

I took it to mean that she would feel abused by the people preventing her to speak her fears about this, but I may be wrong.