Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Vixen]

I did not assert, I questioned. You dodged. Granted, the question wasn't directed at you, but since you've seen fit to toss your two cents in with condescension... learn some logic, please.

You first. Answer your own set questions:

What makes a person psychologically male or female? What are the psychological hallmarks of a female and of a male?
What makes a person emotionally male or female? What are the emotional characteristics of a female and of a male?
What makes a person societally male or female? What are the societal indicators of a female and of a male?

Then we'll see where we agree and disagree.

 

[Vixen]

I have considered them. And I've also noted that a fair number of people simply ASSUME that there are these super-distinct "characteristics" that make it super-easy to distinguish male from female in terms of everything EXCEPT actual physical biology.

They hold contradictory positions: On the one hand, they argue that sex is not well defined, is unclear, and is a spectrum when speaking of actual biology. And on the other hand, they hold that there are psychological, emotional, and social distinctions between males and females that are prescriptive - thus asserting that a male who demonstrates female "emotional traits" is actually a "woman".

It's illogical special pleading and contradictory hogwash.

It is not assumption with me.

 

[Vixen]

More prone than whom? More prone than females? Or more prone than males?

More prone than anybody else of her social class.

 

[Manger Douse]

I am not convinced that transgender women are any more prone to sex crimes outwith the usual sort of person we expect to see in the criminal classes.

58% of transwomen prisoners have a conviction for sexual assault - only 3% of women do

 

[Rolfe]

You first. Answer your own set questions:

What makes a person psychologically male or female? What are the psychological hallmarks of a female and of a male?
What makes a person emotionally male or female? What are the emotional characteristics of a female and of a male?
What makes a person societally male or female? What are the societal indicators of a female and of a male?

Then we'll see where we agree and disagree.

There's no such thing. The only thing that makes anyone male or female is their body.

There may be certain psychological profiles, emotional states and even societal roles that are more common among one sex or the other. In fact, there's no "may" about it. But having a psyche, emotions and even a societal role that's more typical of the sex you aren't does not actually make you the sex you aren't.

No more than behaving like a dog makes a cat a dog.

 

[Vixen]

Here's what you, as well as Vixen, keep missing:

It's not that trans are sexual predators; it's that sexual predators are claim trans.


Consider a parallel analogy. Consider an under age 10 child-only space, designed and intended for the safety and happiness of children. In previous years, the age in question has been based on the chronological measurement of age, from date of birth. Similarly, there are requirements for a person to have a minimum age in order to access certain services, such as driving, drinking, and signing contracts.

Recently, there's been an organized push for people to be accepting and supportive of people who identify as transage. These people have been discriminated against and treated as social pariahs, because most people think that identifying as a different age than one has chronologically is strange and deviant. There's been a lot of progress made in accepting that some people truly feel a different age than they are, and in many social situations their chronological age is irrelevant.

There's also been a push to change policy. The desired policy is to allow people, including children, to be treated as the age they identify as, in all scenarios.

If we were to allow transage people to engage in every aspect of society based on their identified-as age, AND we allow that age to be based on self-declaration in order to attain a transage identifier on their various documentation... what are some of the potential downsides and risks that might occur?

• What is the likelihood that a 16 year old might identify as 21, and thus be legally allowed to attain access to alcohol?
• What is the likelihood that a 40 year old with pedophilic leanings might identify as a 9 year old in order to attain legal access to child-only spaces?
• What is the likelihood that a 40 year old might seek to persuade a 12 year old that the 12 year old identifies as 21 in order to legally have sex with them?

In short: What sort of loopholes occur if we as a society were to accept a person's transage as being synonymous with their chronological age, and grant them access to spaces and services solely on the basis of their declared trans age? Are there potential downsides that may be exploited to the deficit of other people? Is there a potential for material harm to befall some people as a result of this policy?

How much harm to other people are you willing to accept in order to assuage the discomfort of those who genuinely identify as transage?

It is well known that age limits are arbitrary. In the UK you can drink alcohol and have sex earlier than most places in the USA. In Italy a woman can marry at age 14 if her parents consent and she is 'in love'. In some parts of the world you can marry at age 12. You can vote ate age 18. It used to be age 21. So police tend to turn a blind eye to two people aged 15 having sex because if they arrested all of them, the courts would be full of oversexed teenagers.

So if age is arbitrary who's to say that 'only boys can go to boys schools'? Marlborough used to be 'boys only' but now they let in girls. Was it the end of the world?

 

[Vixen]

So... a female who wears trousers, shirts and tie, and has short hair is actually a "man" regardless of their own view on it? Is gender determined by superficial social trends then?

How the **** is that "progressive"?

Seriously..

Traditionalists: Women do the dishes.
Feminists: Both men and women can do the dishes.
Trans Activists: Whoever does the dishes is a woman.

I was asking a poster who presumably identifies as male to consider which part of the above was part of his male identity and how does that change if a woman also does it (i.e., who wears trousers, shirts and tie, and has short hair, buys clothes and shoes from menswear, went to a boys school). Note how much of this is just social artefact.

 

[Rolfe]

One of the things I found so infuriating about Ada Palmer's "Terra Ignota" series was the protagonist's predilection for referring to people by pronouns discordant with the sex we had definitely been told the person was. Yes, Mycroft was mad, but while I thought perhaps the author was playing with the current obsession, it seems she wasn't.

Mycroft thought that Carlyle (definitely male) was a caring sort of person, so referred to him as "she". In a printed book this was especially disconcerting, because there was no constant physical presence of the male character to remind us of who he really was. Nobody asked Carlyle.

If this nonsense goes on the way it's going (spoiler, it won't), everyone will be seeing everyone else as male sometimes and female other times, depending on the mood the person they're observing is in. "A woman is someone who is kind and caring," said one TRA. So the vindictive bitch from hell is to be deprived of her actual sex whether she likes it or not? On the other hand I never yet met a TRA who was either kind or caring so I suppose they're all male, including the ones in bad wigs, makeup and heels.

We'll have a species divided into two classes, the "nice" ones in the female camp and the aggressive ones in the male camp. What on earth is the point of any of this?

Your sex is determined by your body. The rest of your personality is up to you, but it doesn't affect which sex you are.

 

[Rolfe]

It is well known that age limits are arbitrary. In the UK you can drink alcohol and have sex earlier than most places in the USA. In Italy a woman can marry at age 14 if her parents consent and she is 'in love'. In some parts of the world you can marry at age 12. You can vote ate age 18. It used to be age 21. So police tend to turn a blind eye to two people aged 15 having sex because if they arrested all of them, the courts would be full of oversexed teenagers.

So if age is arbitrary who's to say that 'only boys can go to boys schools'? Marlborough used to be 'boys only' but now they let in girls. Was it the end of the world?

Age is not arbitrary. Age limits are arbitrary.

Lots of former single-sex schools have become co-educational. What is your point, caller?

 

[Ziggurat]

It is well known that age limits are arbitrary.

The specific demarcation chosen is arbitrary. The reason to use age limits at all is not.

So if age is arbitrary who's to say that 'only boys can go to boys schools'?

That makes no sense. The fact that a criteria is arbitrary isn't a reason to not use it. Are you suggesting we should let 5 year olds drink alcohol, or drive, or vote, or act in pornography?

Or let's take something a bit more arbitrary: speed limits. The choice of, say, 60 mph speed limit instead of 59 or 61 is arbitrary. That's not an excuse to not obey speed limits. It serves a purpose even when the choice is arbitrary.

So yeah, there's a reason to say that only boys can go to boys school: because it's a boys school. If you think we shouldn't have boys schools, then make that argument. But you aren't really making that argument.

Marlborough used to be 'boys only' but now they let in girls. Was it the end of the world?

No, but it's the end of Marlborough as a boys school.

 

[Vixen]

Most women in prison are there for non-payment of fines. Many of them have been the victims of domestic violence. Many of them have been caught up in drug-taking. A fair proportion of them are extremely vulnerable.

You are aware that drug addiction is often behind the violent crime of mugging? Stop pretending women are incapable of being violent. Being drugged up or drunk is not a cop out.

 

[Vixen]

Huh. I'm used to the trans-activists' Utopian Dodge: "If we solve all the problems of prison violence and prisoner predation, we won't need to worry about housing men with women."

But I think this is the first time I've seen the Dystopian Dodge: "Prisoners are subhuman scum anyway, and let's be honest - prison rape is an unofficial part of the sentencing guidelines. Anyone who gets raped by their cellmate had it coming anyway."

Who said that? It just seems amusing that people who are anti-transgender rights have to make out they are really concerned about female prisoners all of a sudden.

 

[Manger Douse]

Who said that? It just seems amusing that people who are anti-transgender rights have to make out they are really concerned about female prisoners all of a sudden.

We became concerned when it was demanded that a group that's 58% sex offenders be allowed access to womens prisons

 

[Vixen]

Sex is determined at conception and immutable. When we're talking about mammals and birds, anyway. It doesn't "develop" to something different.

Yes and the only time animas and birds have 'ladies only' spaces are when there are newborns. For example, bears tend to be solitary creatures but stay with their cubs until they are old enough to part ways. Elephants stand in a circle and help the lady elephant give birth. There is no 'female space only' there.

 

[Vixen]

So what? Going by your own terminology, Quinn is a dog and Mary is a bitch. Irrespective of their behaviour.

If I see an animal with a penis and testicles I am going to put it down in the notes as male. I do not care if the owner tells me it is "super-girly", whatever that might mean in an animal, it's male.

And do dogs operate 'ladies only' spaces?

 

[theprestige]

NM

 

[GlennB]

And do dogs operate 'ladies only' spaces?

Dogs don't rape. An entire dog is likely to take a sexual interest in a bitch when she's in season. At that point the bitch will be receptive. It's consensual, so to speak.

 

[Rolfe]

You are aware that drug addiction is often behind the violent crime of mugging? Stop pretending women are incapable of being violent. Being drugged up or drunk is not a cop out.

Well, if I'd ever said that women are incapable of being violent, you might have a point.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes and the only time animas and birds have 'ladies only' spaces are when there are newborns.

Animals frequently rape each other and murder babies of their own species. What animals do or do not do isn't really much of a guide to how we should behave. Why do you need this pointed out to you? Why isn't that obvious already?

 

[Rolfe]

Dogs don't rape. An entire dog is likely to take a sexual interest in a bitch when she's in season. At that point the bitch will be receptive. It's consensual, so to speak.

It is an interesting point. Bitches only come into heat twice a year, for a few days each time. Dogs are fertile and capable of mating permanently. However, unless the bitch is on heat (or in pro-oestrus), they aren't interested. They'll get along together just as two dogs with no thought of sex on either part.

The bitch is also entirely in control. It is physically impossible for a dog to rape a bitch.

There's also no evidence that bitches (in or out of season) have any sense of modesty.