Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[mumblethrax]

Tell you what. You find a comparable example where a man who didn't play the "lady feelz" card wasn't imprisoned for a similar offence. Good luck.

Took me two seconds.

https://www.scdailypress.com/2016/10/14/man-receives-deferred-sentence-in-child-porn-case/

Here's a local case, if that matters to you. I had to use slightly different search terms, so this took me about five seconds.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/west-midland...ntence-possessing-over-1800-prohibited-images

 

[d4m10n]

Honestly, it's in this actual thread and I spent a lot of time typing it all out. It was a pretty in-depth discussion.

Quite sorry that I missed it, I was out of the loop throughout Lent.

Can anyone remember where the best systematic review of the evidence on puberty blockers was posted?

 

[mumblethrax]

The UK has invented quite a pointlessly complex problem because it technically allows people to officially transition and avoid any ambiguity, but in practice makes this a long and difficult process to complete.

The UK law requires trans people to have been living their gender identity for at least 2 years before any legal recognition is granted. This obviously creates an opportunity for ambiguity where an "out" trans person is still not granted any official status for years at a time.

Sure, but when Rolfe moans about trans self-id, she's talking about the proposed reforms in Scotland.

The reality is that an insincerely motivated declaration in order to avoid prison would be pretty easy for the courts to suss out. Just look at when it happened.

 

[Elaedith]

I was hoping for a little more detailed discussion rather than conclusory assertion.

On the one hand, we have articles like this one, which claims "Puberty blockers, GnRh agonists like the injectable Lupron or the implant Supprelin, suppress puberty by modifying hormone release. Such drugs have been used off-label safely for more than 30 years to stop early puberty."

On the other hand, we have articles like this one.

Puberty blockers are used very differently for precocious puberty compared to their use with gender dysphoria.
Children prescribed blockers for precocious puberty are prescribed them when the onset of puberty falls below the normal range, and are on them for a relatively short time, then resume puberty within the normal time frame.
Puberty blockers for GD are prescribed to prevent puberty within the normal time frame and can be prescribed as early as Tanner Stage 2 of puberty, which can be 10-12 years. Even in not prescribed until age 12, most children stay on them until the begin CSH treatment at 16, which is much longer than when use for PP.
If the child then goes off blockers, they will be undergoing puberty outside the normal time frame and not in synchrony with their peers. The long-term social, cognitive, neurological and physical effects of this are not known.
Almost all children prescribed blockers go on to CSH, yet before the advent of the affirmation-only approach the majority of cases of GD resolved at puberty. Puberty blockers may prevent the natural resolution of GD at puberty.
If children go straight to CSH treatment they will never go through natural puberty. There is no evidence that treatment with CSHs produces the same effects as natural puberty, - particularly the effects on brain development, which occurs in complex stages during natural puberty.
The claim that blockers are reversible is false, even if children do resume normal puberty. The effects of not going through puberty during the normal time scale are not reversible, and the long-term effects of delaying are not known, since it is argued that puberty is a critical period for brain development.

 

[Elaedith]

Quite sorry that I missed it, I was out of the loop throughout Lent.

Can anyone remember where the best systematic review of the evidence on puberty blockers was posted?

You might want to look at the Cass review, even though it is only an interim report. You can download here.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sure, but when Rolfe moans about trans self-id, she's talking about the proposed reforms in Scotland.

The reality is that an insincerely motivated declaration in order to avoid prison would be pretty easy for the courts to suss out. Just look at when it happened.

Canada springs to mind as the obvious test-case for such claims. Surely Scottish criminals are no more perfidious than their Canadian counterparts.

Self-ID by declaration has been the law since 2017 and changing gender is a matter of filling out a few forms.

 

[mumblethrax]

Self-ID by declaration has been the law since 2017 and changing gender is a matter of filling out a few forms.

Seems to be province-by-province in Canada, similar to the US. But that's probably even better for answering questions like "Is there a surge of opportunistic trans self-identification among those accused of possessing child pornography when self-id is introduced?" if anyone is genuinely interested in that question.

 

[Thermal]

How did they miss the opportunity to title this thread installment Trans women are not Women (YX)?

 

[theprestige]

How did they miss the opportunity to title this thread installment Trans women are not Women (YX)?

I think they were going for a "Title IX" joke.

 

[Thermal]

I think they were going for a "Title IX" joke.

Or maybe the Y was pictorially emasculated?

 

[theprestige]

Or maybe the Y was pictorially emasculated?

Are Trans-Is Is, or are they just Ys cosplaying as Is?

 

[Thermal]

Are Trans-Is Is, or are they just Ys cosplaying as Is?

I feel like there's an "I with a strap-on" gag bouncing around in there somewhere, but that's likely why I don't get invited to classier parties.

 

[theprestige]

I feel like there's an "I with a strap-on" gag bouncing around in there somewhere, but that's likely why I don't get invited to classier parties.

"K".

 

[d4m10n]

You might want to look at the Cass review, even though it is only an interim report. You can download here.

Thanks! Will do.

Puberty blockers are used very differently for precocious puberty compared to their use with gender dysphoria.

Right, but if they prove dangerous in the former case then surely they are at least as dangerous in the latter.

Even if not prescribed until age 12, most children stay on them until the begin CSH treatment at 16, which is much longer than when use for PP.

Right, and we seem to lack studies comparing CSH to natural puberty in terms of brain and body development.

Almost all children prescribed blockers go on to CSH, yet before the advent of the affirmation-only approach the majority of cases of GD resolved at puberty.

If this claim is true, then sending young people down the path of blockers followed by cross-sex hormones may be denying them resolution to their dysphoria in addition to denying them ordinary sexual function. I would think those who advocate for trans youth would be very concerned about this possibility.

The claim that blockers are reversible is false, even if children do resume normal puberty. The effects of not going through puberty during the normal time scale are not reversible, and the long-term effects of delaying are not known, since it is argued that puberty is a critical period for brain development.

Sounds to me like they are only partially reversible, depending on time frame and follow-on treatment.

 

[Elaedith]

Right, and we seem to lack studies comparing CSH to natural puberty in terms of brain and body development.

The Cass review mentions a study on page 39, section 3.33 'An international interdisciplinary panel42 has highlighted the importance of understanding the neurodevelopmental outcomes of pubertal suppression and defined an appropriate approach for investigating this further. However, this work has not yet been undertaken.'

This study is 'Chen D, Strang JF, Kolbuck VD, Rosenthal SM, Wallen K, Waber DP, et al (2020). Consensus parameter: research methodologies to evaluate neurodevelopmental effects of pubertal suppression in transgender youth.
Transgender Health 5(4). '

The article is about establishing the best approach to study the long-term effects of puberty blockade on brain development, given that we don't know anything about these effects in humans.

This article is the same one linked to on Science Based Medicine's guest article (by a pro-affirmation doctor) to support a claim that 'Studies on brain development have found no significant differences in youth on blockers'. This was pointed out several times in comments and never corrected. They literally don't care that they are linking to articles that blatantly contradict the claims.

If this claim is true, then sending young people down the path of blockers followed by cross-sex hormones may be denying them resolution to their dysphoria in addition to denying them ordinary sexual function. I would think those who advocate for trans youth would be very concerned about this possibility.

There are good reasons to think that going through puberty is linked to the resolution of early-onset gender dysphoria, but activists will claim that the high percentages going on to cross-sex hormones just proves therapists are picking out the ones who would persist.
Moreover, they don't actually care anyway - if you press the point they will say it doesn't matter and you are being transphobic by implying that being trans is worse than being cis.

 

[theprestige]

I'm pretty sure that in every way that matters, being trans is worse than being cis. That is, suffering from gender dysphoria, and having to make a substantial effort to mitigate the distress (including hormonal subversion and extensive body modification), and still having to deal with a society that responds more positively to cis coding, has got to be worse than not dealing with any of that.

Kind of like how having BIID is worse than... not having BIID. Even if you do feel better after cutting off your legs.

On the other hand, if you just want to "queer" or "hack" the social constructs of gender for fun or ideology, I don't think that's any worse than playing along with them.

On the third hand (the one that the the third sex uses for third sex stuff), if you want to "queer" or "hack" sex segregation for whatever reason, then again we're back to that being worse than not that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Right, and we seem to lack studies comparing CSH to natural puberty in terms of brain and body development.

So... here's the thing. That group of drugs are NOT dangerous for precocious puberty, but they ARE dangerous as puberty blockers, and they ARE dangerous post-puberty.

They disrupt the body's production of sex hormones. Pre-pubertal kids don't have those hormones in any material amounts. Precocious puberty occurs when one set of pubertal processes occurs much earlier than normal - and occurs out of concert with the other processes. In particular, there are two major processes that make up puberty: the pituitary process and the adrenal process. The pituitary process prompts the body to produce sex hormones, and the development of mature sexual organs and some secondary sex characteristics. The adrenal process prompts the lengthening of the long bones and the development of leg and pubic hair. The two are supposed to happen in concert over a period of time, they're processes that depend on each other to operate correctly. In precocious puberty, the pituitary process starts early, before the adrenal process begins. And it leads to health risks when the two don't happen in tandem.

So for a person with precocious puberty, the blockers prevent their body producing sex hormones until the adrenal process begins.

On the other hand... if the adrenal process begins but the pituitary process does NOT trigger... there are a lot of health problems too. Bones density accretion is blocked, leading to fragile bones and osteopenia/osteoporosis. Cognitive maturation is derailed, as sexual maturity and interactions around romantic partnering are developed during puberty. The risk of several other illnesses (can't remember them all) is increased as well.

This is what puberty blockers do when they are applied to a child who should be going through pubertal development. It also happens with some other medical conditions, and those kids need to take hormone supplements to counter those risks.

Blocking hormones in adults is also a problem, as we're evolved to use those hormones as adults. There are a lot of late-age problems in women that are directly caused by the reduction in estrogen that we experience in menopause. Men experiencing a reduction in testosterone also have health problems.

 

[Ziggurat]

So... here's the thing. That group of drugs are NOT dangerous for precocious puberty, but they ARE dangerous as puberty blockers, and they ARE dangerous post-puberty.

What always struck me as weird about the claim that puberty blockers are reversible is that for precocious puberty, you don’t want the effects to be reversible. You want to absolutely prevent precocious puberty from happening, because it produces bad effects. And when you take a child off puberty blockers later, precocious puberty doesn’t resume. You have permanently prevented it. If the effects were reversible, it wouldn’t be much use for that treatment.

 

[mumblethrax]

What always struck me as weird about the claim that puberty blockers are reversible is that for precocious puberty, you don’t want the effects to be reversible.

The effect is, like it says on the tin, blocking puberty. I'd think you would eventually want to reverse that.

And when you take a child off puberty blockers later, precocious puberty doesn’t resume.

It's like you think the proverbial "early bird" is a distinct species.

Precocious puberty doesn't resume because precocious puberty is not a process. Puberty is.

You have permanently prevented it. If the effects were reversible, it wouldn’t be much use for that treatment.

So you're saying that we aren't capable of literally turning back time? A thoroughly reasonable interpretation of what "reversible" means in this context.

 

[Ziggurat]

The effect is, like it says on the tin, blocking puberty. I'd think you would eventually want to reverse that.

Puberty which happens too early doesn’t produce normal results.

Puberty which happens too late doesn’t produce normal results.

Neither of these is reversible. The effects of using puberty blockers is not reversible. The claim that they are is a lie, and a transparent one at that.