Traces found in homeopathic Potency 14c

[Mojo]

Contamination means, they discussed Dr. MAS explanation of prescence of molecules inside the potency with real scientists and they also agree with the experimental observation of dr. mas and finally they called it contimination.

We're quite prepared to call MAS incompetent if you prefer.






In fact we'll call him incompetent whether you like it or not.

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

a certificate from incompetent to competent.

 

[Dr. MAS]

MAS, read my posts in other threads on this subject. The JREF challenge is a paranormal challenge. How is the presense of molecules in a sample a paranormal thing?

What source do you propose the molecules you may find come from? Are they a product of a correctly executed serial dilution, or are they a product of contamination?

If you find a few molecules, how will they affect the patients getting the remedy? Perhaps you should name a remedy and explain which effects you assume to get from various concentrations?

Hans

It is the headache of jref organization whether homeopathy is paranormal in nature or not. Homeopathy is included in your paranormal. If you withdraw the word "Homeopathy" from your paranormal prize list. I am ready to pay you what ever you demand in the form of cash. (A gentle man promise) My biodata is available on net so you will not find any difficulty in contacting me. Just do a simple thing and ask jref to remove the name of homeopathy from their paranormal list linked at jref web site and win the prize which you want. A blank check will be offered to you. For this purpose if you want an affidavit (court document) I am pleased to sign it.

Why I should tell you all this secret information. Gentleman, you said, there is no molecule in 13c potency. I claim it has. Now go to any homeopathic store in your locallity and purchase any 30c medicine and send it in sealed form at my address or come to my home with your potency. I will prove it. It has molecules otherthan water and alcohol. You know it was offered by skeptics at JRE forum that if you prove it, you (mas) can win 1 million prize.

 

[Zep]

And now MAS is trying to back out of the JREF challenge! How richly amusing that is!

The funny bit is that MAS is using his utter ignorance of chemistry and physics and mathematics as the excuse for doing so! I wonder where he got his PhD...back of a Cornflakes packet, I would imagine...

 

[Jocky]

It's no good, I can't bear lurking any more. If Dr Mas is in fact a troll, it's a good one - but if he is masquerading as some sort of medical practictioner, then he's scary. I now fear the latter is the case.

It is the headache of jref organization whether homeopathy is paranormal in nature or not

No. You have the headache, not JREF.

am ready to pay you what ever you demand in the form of cash

You offer to cure this headache by means of bribery?
If you could produce clinical proof of that, you might be on to something
Seriously, if you think JREF is going to drop the assertion that homoeopathy could only work by paranormal means in exchange for a pile of rupees, you are totally off your head.

Gentleman, you said, there is no molecule in 13c potency

No they didn't - they said that there were no molecules originating from the mother tincture in 13c potency.

Edit: just out of interest, what makes you think they're all gentlemen? The Fire has boobs, you know

 

[The_Fire]

[snip]
No. You have the headache, not JREF.
[/snip]

Indeed. MAS's claim, MAS's burden of evidence.

MAS-collective: Please provide a shred of evidence to back up these theories you claim.
I would also like to know your response to the NCH-claim that you are not whom you claim to be as well as evidence to support your stance on the subject.

ETA: Link to relevant post regarding the MASS-collectives identity on another thread: here

 

[steenkh]

It is the headache of jref organization whether homeopathy is paranormal in nature or not.

Neither we nor the JREF has any problem determining whether homoeopathy was paranormal, so no headaches are involved.

In one of my first replies to you a year ago, I collected a small list of paranormal aspects of homoeopathy.

I quote myself:

1. It is regarded as paranormal in the JREF sense that homoeopathy claims that there is any difference between a homoeopathic solution above 12C or 24X and the solvent alone. This is a claim that is easy to test, and JREF has already formulated a test protocol for this claim that has been cited in this thread.

2. It is also regarded as paranormal that homoeopathy claims to be able to heal anything with these homoeopathic solutions, i.e. anything that could not have been healed with water alone under identical circumstances. This will probably be more difficult to test, given the homoeopaths' propensity to constantly switch remedies until the illness has been cured of itself.

3. The entire claim that homoeopathy can heal "alike with alike" is something that would probably merit the million dollar if it were true. This is what we here call "sympathetic magic". If you can devise any protocol that proves this as a general principle, I think JREF would accept it.

4. "Succussion" and "trituration" are just magical formulas used to consecrate the pure water that is supposed to have healing effects. I believe that the JREF would accept a claim that these actions have any effect on a water solution or a powder.

5. The practice of "grafting" is also paranormal, because it is another example of magic thinking. The idea that untreated pills left alone close to treated pills will eventually obtain the same properties as the treated pills, is definitely paranormal. Considering item 1 above, we claim that the pills were in any case identical from the beginning, so you will not get JREF to pay you a million dollar from this, but if you could find another example of this phenomenon, it might be worth investigating.

6. If you subscribe to the theory of "water memory", you might be able devise another protocol that could prove this to the satisfaction of JREF.

You see that there are a good many reasons why homoeopathy is grating against science and plain common sense. We have no headaches about this, you might get it if you should try to find a sensible explanation for these things. But as long as you cannot even make homoeopathy work under controlled circumstances, you need not to worry too much!

 

[Jocky]

Thanks for the link to the other thread Fire - and many thanks to Zep for unravelling the convoluted truth (from the NCH site):

1) There are a whole bunch of homeopaths who all together pretend they are "Dr. MAS" - it is a sort of consulting group.

2) One of them is called Dr. MAS for real.

3) They all answer enquiries directed to "Dr. MAS" from the public and other places.

4) These individuals sometimes sign their posts under the "Dr. MAS" username with their real names, and sometimes they don't. So the "Dr. MAS" name is a way to hide themselves from blame.

5) The real Dr. MAS occasionally writes articles, but is happy to give them to other people in this group to publish under their own names, even though they didn't actually write those articles.

Trying to work out why anybody should want to operate in this way makes my head hurt.

So Mas, when you say:

I am ready to pay you what ever you demand in the form of cash. (A gentle man promise) ... For this purpose if you want an affidavit (court document) I am pleased to sign it.

Who is "I" in these sentences exactly? If it is true that

My biodata is available on net so you will not find any difficulty in contacting me

then telling us who you are would not be a violation of rule 9, surely?

 

[LTC8K6]

So, who's membership data is correct?

Doesn't our membership data have to be correct?

Since everyone and their brother is using the account, who will be held responsible for rules violations?

Can MAS violate the rules and get over by claiming it was the janitor posting?

 

[Curnir]

And now MAS is trying to back out of the JREF challenge! How richly amusing that is!

The funny bit is that MAS is using his utter ignorance of chemistry and physics and mathematics as the excuse for doing so! I wonder where he got his PhD...back of a Cornflakes packet, I would imagine...

Nonsense. You won't find and phd diplomas in cornflakes packets, the only kind of diplomas to be found in cornflakes packets are bsc. of either geology or mycology...

If you want a phd diploma you need to buy a packets of fruitloops or bran flakes.

*sigh*
This is the second forum I've had to set straight on this urban legend

 

[Zep]

Nonsense. You won't find and phd diplomas in cornflakes packets, the only kind of diplomas to be found in cornflakes packets are bsc. of either geology or mycology...

If you want a phd diploma you need to buy a packets of fruitloops or bran flakes.

*sigh*
This is the second forum I've had to set straight on this urban legend

brb....



[sounds of Zep rushing out to buy FruitLoops...]

 

[Zep]

So, who's membership data is correct?

Doesn't our membership data have to be correct?

Since everyone and their brother is using the account, who will be held responsible for rules violations?

Can MAS violate the rules and get over by claiming it was the janitor posting?

That's precisely the game they have all been trying to play for some time. Unfortunately (for them and MAS), the skeptics here were onto their game very early on, and confronted them with it. But instead of doing the right thing, giving it up and getting individual usernames here, the MAS Collective insisted it wasn't happening. And have still been insisting up until recently. Now the facts say something is rotten in the state of Punjab.

Typical homeopath mentality, I guess! Don't look at the man behind the curtain!

 

[Meffy]

Trying to work out why anybody should want to operate in this way makes my head hurt.

I can't say why anyone would do such a thing, but I just made up a name for a group of people who post on a forum under one name.

"Pup socket."

 

[Mojo]

That's precisely the game they have all been trying to play for some time. Unfortunately (for them and MAS), the skeptics here were onto their game very early on, and confronted them with it. But instead of doing the right thing, giving it up and getting individual usernames here, the MAS Collective insisted it wasn't happening. And have still been insisting up until recently.

Not only that, of course, but they've also been insisting that everyone else here has been doing this, or are family members of other posters (it seems that in Pakistani homoeopath society wives and children do not have any free will independent of the man of the house...), or whatever.

 

[Meffy]

Worse still, the skeptics have to recruit innocent forest creatures -- skunks, for example -- to do their bidding. Is there no end to the deceptions those villains will commit?

(The polyester-blend argyle on my left paw says "No, Meffy, there isn't!" in a high squeaky voice.)

 

[anor277]

.................... Gentleman, you said, there is no molecule in 13c potency. I claim it has. Now go to any homeopathic store in your locallity and purchase any 30c medicine and send it in sealed form at my address or come to my home with your potency. I will prove it. It has molecules otherthan water and alcohol. You know it was offered by skeptics at JRE forum that if you prove it, you (mas) can win 1 million prize.

You persist in a delusion. I myself could easily find contaminants in any homeopathic preparation (mind you I could not do it at my home, I would need an AAS machine!). I doubt you could find anyone denying the fact that there were no molecules at the 13th potency as solvent contaminants; this was never our claim. We did claim there there was little likelihood of finding molecules or atoms arising from the mother tincture at 13C and none at all at 30C. Is it your position that these contaminant atoms effect a healing process?........Deafening silence.

You have also claimed elsewhere that you could add 10^-46 kg of belladonna to a solution and therefore have a belladonna potency. Is this still your position?......Deafening silence again.

 

[Zep]

Having tried even further to understand the mind of the Pakistani homeopaths, one of the more extraordinary claims is that they actually believe that only if they can have many aliases per person that they can "be honest" on a forum - in short, multiple personalities encourage them to honesty in their profession.

I'm still trying to find out more from them at NCH, but it seems to be some sort of cultural theme developing here. I'm no sociologist (is that the right profession? Anyway...), but it would seem that the practice of hiding true identity, and also exaggerating true identity, is de rigeur in either Pakistani homeopathic practice, or perhaps more widely in certain sections of Pakistani society. It would seem it is to do with the issue of "saving face" too.

Let's take MAS as a case in point. Hiding true identity is done by means of this "MAS Collective". It is achieved by creating a "Dear Abby" entity called "Dr. MAS", who may be one person or many (in this case, many). Issues are addressed by the public to "Dr. MAS", the entity. One of the entity's constituents replies. Should the advice prove worthwhile, Dr. MAS personally collects the praise. Should it not, blame can be attributed to someone else, an anonymous nobody who is not Dr. MAS. Dr. MAS's personal "face" is saved.

The other point is exaggeration of the personal entity - increasing someone's personal standing. The easiest way for any homeopath to do this in a society that is still overcoming low literacy standards is to acquire some form of recognition that raises them above the standing of their supposed peers - doctors and lawyers and such. How? Simple: by getting more letters after their names. If people haven't seen MAS's extensive list of qualifications, here they are:

B.Ed
M.A (Pol Sci)
M.Ed
M.Phil (T.E Prev)
Ph.D (Med Alt)
CLS
BLIS (Library)
B.A (Psychology)
B.Sc (Bio & Chemistry)
D.H.M.S (Homeopathy)
B.H.M.S (Prev)
D.H.M.C.S (Comp)
D.E.H.M.S (Electro Homeopathy)
D.M.T (Magneto Therapy)
D.R.H.M.S (Radesthesia & Radionic)
C.F.A (Fine Arts)
HLC (Hindi)
D.H.P
D.Ac.P
D.Ac (Acupuncture)
D.M (Moxi)
D.R.V.M (Veterinary)
D.O.M (Office Management)
D.G.D
D.C.C
D.C.A
B.C.S (Computer)

Clearly it is not reasonable for MAS to have gained such qualifications in his short lifetime so far (he is a young father with young children, apparently). Just a real PhD alone should take a number of years to acquire, and preclude other studies. So the only alternatives for these qualifications are:

1) To have gained them simultaneously, i.e. having one body of study qualify for multiple degrees. This topic was raised on another thread.

2) To have acquired them in a very short time, most probably from a degree-mill.

3) To be falsely claiming them without qualification in any way (not dissimilar to (2)).

However the driving reason behind this extensive list remains the necessity of being seen to be more qualified than he actually is, by falsehood if necessary. It is a matter of social standing - he is often touted on Pakistani homeopathy forums as "the great Dr MAS", and "the wise Dr MAS". Social standing, personal "face", is behind all this.

In his own community, it is possible for MAS to get away with sounding like a learned person, especially with all these letters trailing. But the problem for MAS on a global forum like JREF is that his glaring deficiencies in knowledge, and the shambles behind his supposed degrees, are rapidly exposed. Already it is clear that he lacks the basic knowledge that a high school student would be expected to know, let alone what a PhD candidate should know. His so-called challenges are based on plain hubris and truculence, no evidence or argument back them up, and certainly no scientific logic.

The thing is that his Pakistani homeopath colleagues still want to bow to his supposed great knowledge. The issue we have to address, if we want to see changes, is not so much MAS per se, but the environment in which he is allowed to thrive.

 

[Mojo]

Having tried even further to understand the mind of the Pakistani homeopaths, one of the more extraordinary claims is that they actually believe that only if they can have many aliases per person that they can "be honest" on a forum - in short, multiple personalities encourage them to honesty in their profession.

I'm still trying to find out more from them at NCH, but it seems to be some sort of cultural theme developing here. I'm no sociologist (is that the right profession? Anyway...), but it would seem that the practice of hiding true identity, and also exaggerating true identity, is de rigeur in either Pakistani homeopathic practice, or perhaps more widely in certain sections of Pakistani society. It would seem it is to do with the issue of "saving face" too.

I particularly like NCHPakistan's suggestion (in this thread) that multiple identities are needed because otherwise all the highly qualified "doctors" on the NCH forum would be too embarrassed to ask questions like "What is the difference between an ion, charge, atom and molecule?"

You see, when a doctor will ask a question like that one with your real name, no body will take your question seriously, rather I expect, passing on funny remarks from the members over your question and on your personality.

 

[steenkh]

I particularly like NCHPakistan's suggestion (in this thread) that multiple identities are needed because otherwise all the highly qualified "doctors" on the NCH forum would be too embarrassed to ask questions like "What is the difference between an ion, charge, atom and molecule?"

A frank opinion, highlighting a cultural issue concerning the level of education and degree and the need for face-saving measures!

Any way, I am not completely sure about the difference between an ion and an atom

 

[Zep]

I'd just like to add that this situation does not represent the whole of Pakistan's science programmes or educated people. My admittedly limited experience tells me that many of them are indeed highly educated to world-class standard, and are a credit to their people and and asset to their country.