Toxic Online Feminism

So, just to skip to the end, have we come up with a generally agreed-upon functional definition of feminism? Or are we still arguing over the Betty Friedan v. Story of O v. lesbianism v. every other possible definition of feminism ever?

I'm OK with the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on feminism as a definition. I can only speak for myself though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]

Inherent in the definition is that it includes different movements and ideologies.
 
Which was pretty much the point of the article, the legitimate complaints and concerns are being drown out by the ideological bullying and victimization culture.

Well, that's the thing luchog, you can't have people fall victim to the bullying that might suppress such legitimate complaints and concerns without a victimization culture. So how do we redress that culture? Bully the bullies? Doesn't that just perpetuate a victim culture and why perhaps some bullies are bullies in the first place? Try to help the victims? An excellent approach in and of itself but bullies are great at finding victims and where there are victims (which we all are to one extent or another) there is going to be a victim culture. In fact the former tends to support the latter. Without, sociologically, a desire to help victims their is no impetus to assert, maintain or perhaps exacerbate ones victim status. As I'm sure you know, why a lot of victims don't come forward is that they feel the support just isn't there. Except perhaps in setting with those similarly victimized.
 
I'm OK with the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on feminism as a definition. I can only speak for myself though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism



Inherent in the definition is that it includes different movements and ideologies.


Which would be an aspect of discourse, how one deals with those different movements and ideologies. Does one discuss, redress and perhaps just accept that different people are going to take different paths to what might be the same goal? Your point to Loss Leader being that there doesn't have to be a unilateral front and luchog's point being that it doesn't serve the goal to just beat the crap out of people unless they help make it that unilateral front.
 
Let's look at some of the high points in the discourse of feminism in 2013.

I’m rising on the floor today to humbly give voice to thousands of Texans who have been ignored.

Texas State Sen. Wendy Davis, beginning her 13-hour filibuster against Gov. Rick Perry’s draconian anti-abortion bill

I have a daughter and I have granddaughters and I will never vote to let a group of backward-looking ideologues cut women’s access to birth control. We have lived in that world, and we are not going back, not ever.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren in a Senate speech on the eve of the government shutdown

In Pakistan, when we were stopped from going to school, at that time I realized that education … is the power for women, and that’s why the terrorists are afraid of education.

Last year 16 year old Malala Yousafzai, not only published a memoir, but spoke before the UN, and confronted the President of the United States on his use of drones while on a visit to the White House. Many think she may be a serious candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize. Her simple statement: “I want every girl, every child, to be educated.”

“I would be crazy if I didn’t understand that this was a medal for the entire women’s movement,”

Last year Gloria Steinem won The Presidential Medal of Freedom. This honor highlights Steinem’s decades of work in the fight for social justice and brings attention to the continued efforts toward gender equality.

Nadezhda Tolokonnikova: and other members of the feminist punk protest band Pussy Riot, Tolokonnikova spent the last two years in a remote prison colony in Siberia. Along with two others, she was convicted of “hooliganism” motivated by religious hatred for an anti-Putin performance in an Orthodox church. What's she doing this year? Starting a human rights organization.

Kakenya Ntaiya not only became the only woman in her Kenyan village to get a college degree, she came back and started a school. Last year she earned the Global Womens Rights Award, was honored by National Geographic as an Emerging Explorer and listed as one of CNN's Top Ten CNN Heroes.

US Senator Kirsten Gillibrand and US Rep Jackie Speier together have been leading the charge to protect women in the military from sexual assault. Last year they not only pushed forward bills to change how the military deals with sexual assault, but also how it reports sexual assault, taking that outside the chain of command.

Edie Windsor, likely candidate for Time's Person Of The Year, took on the supreme court in her 80s, resulting in the ruling that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional.

Brittoney Griner announced she was a lesbian just before being picked first overall in the 2013 WNBA draft.

Rep Barbara Lee, most recently introduced a bill to repeal funding for abstinence only programs and support comprehensive sexuality education. The president nominated her to a be representative of the United States to the United Nations. She is the first African American woman to hold that position.

Nina Turner's work as an Ohio state senator and minority whip to to stop anti birth control, anti abortion legislations, as well as end the 20 year statute of limitation on rape cases.


There are hundreds more examples of real discourse that accurately depict the image of feminists.

Do all the hateful tweets and blog comments that follow these women's actions and words tarnish the image of feminism? Hell no. Because we all know that the internet is full of nut jobs, haters, racists, sexists, and all around crazy and mean spirited people.

Is feminism tarnished because some self selected subset of internet users tirelessly bickers about word definitions and privilege in 140 characters or less, or in the comments section of blog articles? Hell no. Because we all know that the internet is full of nut jobs, haters, racists, sexists, and all around crazy and mean spirited people.

There's a reason it's called Twitter. Named for a bird call consisting of light repeated tremulous sounds. “A short burst of inconsequential information,” its founders said. The chirps, chirrups, tweets, peeps, warbles and chatter of twitterers, loud, important, and cacophonous as they may seem to other twitterers, are mostly a bunch of meaningless background noise to the rest of the world.

I step outside and hear the chatter and chirrups of real birds every day. I enjoy the sound and listen to them often. I've learned to identify several species by their call, including the mockingbird, who does a pretty good imitation of a bunch of them.

I think if you are genuinely interested in the real discourse of feminists, you should look to the actual words and deeds of the women above and thousands more like them that work each day to make the world a better place for our daughters. Listen to their real speeches. Read their real books. Study their real bills that get passed into real laws. Feminist discourse is alive and well and solidly rooted in the hearts and minds of millions of women and men around the world. The songs of feminists are loud and strong and impeccably clear. Once you hear it, you can recognize it again anywhere.

The argle-bargle twitter-twaddle mish mash of toxic chatter is NOT the song of the feminist. It is irrelevant background noise.
 
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Let's look at some of the high points in the discourse of feminism in 2013.



Texas State Sen. Wendy Davis, beginning her 13-hour filibuster against Gov. Rick Perry’s draconian anti-abortion bill



Sen. Elizabeth Warren in a Senate speech on the eve of the government shutdown



Last year 16 year old Malala Yousafzai, not only published a memoir, but spoke before the UN, and confronted the President of the United States on his use of drones while on a visit to the White House. Many think she may be a serious candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize. Her simple statement: “I want every girl, every child, to be educated.”



Last year Gloria Steinem won The Presidential Medal of Freedom. This honor highlights Steinem’s decades of work in the fight for social justice and brings attention to the continued efforts toward gender equality.

Nadezhda Tolokonnikova: and other members of the feminist punk protest band Pussy Riot, Tolokonnikova spent the last two years in a remote prison colony in Siberia. Along with two others, she was convicted of “hooliganism” motivated by religious hatred for an anti-Putin performance in an Orthodox church. What's she doing this year? Starting a human rights organization.

Kakenya Ntaiya not only became the only woman in her Kenyan village to get a college degree, she came back and started a school. Last year she earned the Global Womens Rights Award, was honored by National Geographic as an Emerging Explorer and listed as one of CNN's Top Ten CNN Heroes.

US Senator Kirsten Gillibrand and US Rep Jackie Speier together have been leading the charge to protect women in the military from sexual assault. Last year they not only pushed forward bills to change how the military deals with sexual assault, but also how it reports sexual assault, taking that outside the chain of command.

Edie Windsor, likely candidate for Time's Person Of The Year, took on the supreme court in her 80s, resulting in the ruling that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional.

Brittoney Griner announced she was a lesbian just before being picked first overall in the 2013 WNBA draft.

Rep Barbara Lee, most recently introduced a bill to repeal funding for abstinence only programs and support comprehensive sexuality education. The president nominated her to a be representative of the United States to the United Nations. She is the first African American woman to hold that position.

Nina Turner's work as an Ohio state senator and minority whip to to stop anti birth control, anti abortion legislations, as well as end the 20 year statute of limitation on rape cases.


There are hundreds more examples of real discourse that accurately depict the image of feminists.

Do all the hateful tweets and blog comments that follow these women's actions and words tarnish the image of feminism? Hell no. Because we all know that the internet is full of nut jobs, haters, racists, sexists, and all around crazy and mean spirited people.

Is feminism tarnished because some self selected subset of internet users tirelessly bickers about word definitions and privilege in 140 characters or less, or in the comments section of blog articles? Hell no. Because we all know that the internet is full of nut jobs, haters, racists, sexists, and all around crazy and mean spirited people.

There's a reason it's called Twitter. Named for a bird call consisting of light repeated tremulous sounds. “A short burst of inconsequential information,” its founders said. The chirps, chirrups, tweets, peeps, warbles and chatter of twitterers, loud, important, and cacophonous as they may seem to other twitterers, are mostly a bunch of meaningless background noise to the rest of the world.

I step outside and hear the chatter and chirrups of real birds every day. I enjoy the sound and listen to them often. I've learned to identify several species by their call, including the mockingbird, who does a pretty good imitation of a bunch of them.

I think if you are genuinely interested in the real discourse of feminists, you should look to the actual words and deeds of the women above and thousands more like them that work each day to make the world a better place for our daughters. Listen to their real speeches. Read their real books. Study their real bills that get passed into real laws. Feminist discourse is alive and well and solidly rooted in the hearts and minds of millions of women and men around the world. The songs of feminists are loud and strong and impeccably clear. Once you hear it, you can recognize it again anywhere.

The argle-bargle twitter-twaddle mish mash of toxic chatter is NOT the song of the feminist. It is irrelevant background noise.

spoilered for brevity

Cross posted onto the male privilege thread...
 
...

The argle-bargle twitter-twaddle mish mash of toxic chatter is NOT the song of the feminist. It is irrelevant background noise.
Unfortunately for feminism it is the exact public face, for me, and I suspect for many others.
 
Unfortunately for feminism it is the exact public face, for me, and I suspect for many others.

If a smallish collection of blogs and twitter feeds is what you think the "exact public face" of feminism is, then that is unfortunate indeed. Unfortunate for you.

What other social movements do you seek to understand by limiting yourself to blogs and tweets?

What twitter feeds are your face of christianity?

Who's blog is the face of libertarianism? Republicans? Democrats? Do you read the articles? Or is it more about the conversations they have in the comments?

What little chunk of the internet is the exact public face of socialized medicine?
 
Unfortunately for feminism it is the exact public face, for me, and I suspect for many others.

So you partake in wilful selective reading. I guess there's a certain nobility in admitting your flaws, but eh...
 
If what is in fact a fairly typical internet argument was capable of shutting down discourse then the internet would be a far quieter place.

In what way can you know that the current level of internet "sound" is quieter or louder than it could have been otherwise?
 
The argle-bargle twitter-twaddle mish mash of toxic chatter is NOT the song of the feminist. It is irrelevant background noise.

A very good post, putting a good context on what work advancing feminism is going on in the world. It makes a great case for why it's important, and thank you for that.

The only thing I find flaw with is the highlighted. Activists blogs are the voices of activists and just because they aren't the names in power to implement feminism, humanism, gender equality, etc, does not make the work they do and the discussions they have irrelevant.

Writings and public discussion has informed movements, and feminism is no different. Many of the subjects they bring up and discuss are complex and delicate and thus need thought out, inspected, reviewed, and debated before they can be implemented. Besides that, it's the introduction to many to feminist thought and tying the actions of people to the philosophy.


Let me put his another way. What you just wrote showing the real work, real good, and real power feminist and feminist thought did was to make people accept and hopefully support these things. Despite being on a forum where less than a thousand people are going to see it, it was not irrelevant or background noise. It is part of the discourse too.
 
A very good post, putting a good context on what work advancing feminism is going on in the world. It makes a great case for why it's important, and thank you for that.

The only thing I find flaw with is the highlighted. Activists blogs are the voices of activists and just because they aren't the names in power to implement feminism, humanism, gender equality, etc, does not make the work they do and the discussions they have irrelevant.

Writings and public discussion has informed movements, and feminism is no different. Many of the subjects they bring up and discuss are complex and delicate and thus need thought out, inspected, reviewed, and debated before they can be implemented. Besides that, it's the introduction to many to feminist thought and tying the actions of people to the philosophy.


Let me put his another way. What you just wrote showing the real work, real good, and real power feminist and feminist thought did was to make people accept and hopefully support these things. Despite being on a forum where less than a thousand people are going to see it, it was not irrelevant or background noise. It is part of the discourse too.

Well said, no less in understanding that spin off movements can be damaging, and getting ahead of that IS important.
 
A very good post, putting a good context on what work advancing feminism is going on in the world. It makes a great case for why it's important, and thank you for that.

The only thing I find flaw with is the highlighted. Activists blogs are the voices of activists and just because they aren't the names in power to implement feminism, humanism, gender equality, etc, does not make the work they do and the discussions they have irrelevant.

Writings and public discussion has informed movements, and feminism is no different. Many of the subjects they bring up and discuss are complex and delicate and thus need thought out, inspected, reviewed, and debated before they can be implemented. Besides that, it's the introduction to many to feminist thought and tying the actions of people to the philosophy.


Let me put his another way. What you just wrote showing the real work, real good, and real power feminist and feminist thought did was to make people accept and hopefully support these things. Despite being on a forum where less than a thousand people are going to see it, it was not irrelevant or background noise. It is part of the discourse too.
That and it demonstrates some use of a SJW background in courses taken, rather than wasting money, time, and effort in STEM courses. The internet is indeed wonderful.

eta: I'd do poorly in college these days; yelling ******** every few seconds would be too tiring.
 
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eta: I'd do poorly in college these days; yelling ******** every few seconds would be too tiring.

To be fair to college administrators, I don't see how students shouting racial slurs in an educational institution furthers the goals of learning
 
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If a smallish collection of blogs and twitter feeds is what you think the "exact public face" of feminism is, then that is unfortunate indeed. Unfortunate for you.

What other social movements do you seek to understand by limiting yourself to blogs and tweets?

What twitter feeds are your face of christianity?

Who's blog is the face of libertarianism? Republicans? Democrats? Do you read the articles? Or is it more about the conversations they have in the comments?

What little chunk of the internet is the exact public face of socialized medicine?

Unfortunately the loudest and most obnoxious are the one you remember by. See for example we probably all remember the latest antic of WB church, or creationist, but the whole bulk of christian are not like that, and we don't remmember them.

So guess who will the people rememmber in average ? not the thoughtful blog post, but the loud obnoxious toxic one.
 
A very good post, putting a good context on what work advancing feminism is going on in the world. It makes a great case for why it's important, and thank you for that.

The only thing I find flaw with is the highlighted. Activists blogs are the voices of activists and just because they aren't the names in power to implement feminism, humanism, gender equality, etc, does not make the work they do and the discussions they have irrelevant.

Writings and public discussion has informed movements, and feminism is no different. Many of the subjects they bring up and discuss are complex and delicate and thus need thought out, inspected, reviewed, and debated before they can be implemented. Besides that, it's the introduction to many to feminist thought and tying the actions of people to the philosophy.


Let me put his another way. What you just wrote showing the real work, real good, and real power feminist and feminist thought did was to make people accept and hopefully support these things. Despite being on a forum where less than a thousand people are going to see it, it was not irrelevant or background noise. It is part of the discourse too.

Tyr_13

I am not saying that all the blogs on the internet are irrelevant to the feminist movement. Some of them are quite good and informative, and I think they do a lot of good educating people. Some of the activists even actually inspire actions. And some of the discourse that passes between bloggers is interesting, and shows a changing and evolving sense of what some feminists are thinking about. I am saying that the bickering and infighting so prevalent on the internet (the focus of the OP) is irrelevant to the movement.

I could just as easily write an article called "What's Wrong With the Skeptical Movement" and point to all the bickering and infighting that happens on this and other skeptical forums, and add in some quotes of people that feel bullied by other members in the movement as evidence of some deep inherent flaw. Someone else could write "What's Wrong with Christianity Today" and point to the exact same thing.

Bickering, bullying, and arguing seems to be some large part of what happens on the internet. It's the reason that Scientific American and Popular Science disabled comments on their articles. They found that the arguments in the comment section not only were irrelevant to the articles in question, but they actually altered how people viewed the articles and viewed science in general.

No, I don't believe my post is relevant to the discourse. Any more than a typical white boy's troll post onto the comments of a feminist blog in order to tell them why they're wrong and how they should all just run off and make him a sandwich and all the gefuffle that ensues. I suppose you could say I just trolled this thread to say "Feminism is alive and well whether you like it or not, nyah nee nyah nyah". The only difference is our motivations. The little white boy either has an oversized sense of the importance of his opinions, or just a desire to disrupt. I'm here in the hopes that someone might read what kind of important work is being done, start realizing that "feminist" isn't just a word describing some kind of woman you don't like, but that it's anyone or anything that's trying to make the world more free of gender discrimination. Perhaps they'll even realize just how much more there is to do, and go home and start an actual real discourse in the real world with their daughters, mothers, sisters and aunts. With their schools and employers, with their lawmakers and media outlets.

Real feminist discourse is the guy who dares to say, "You ever notice that 90% of the people in this department are men? That doesn't seem right. Let's fix it." Or the parent that says "How come most of the kids at this science fair are boys?" As well as any person that writes to his or her lawmakers to do something about female genital mutilation or to sanction countries that refuse to educate their girls, or that legally allow the honor killing of women. Real feminist discourse says we've got to stop rape, whether it's in our neighborhoods, in the military, or in the Congo.

This thread is jibberjabber. Background noise. It is no more relevant to real feminist discourse than a picture of my cat.
 
To be fair to college administrators, I don't see how students shouting racial slurs in an educational institution furthers the goals of learning
Try a 'b' rather than an 'n'. Get it now?

And see the last phrase in my sig.
 
Unfortunately the loudest and most obnoxious are the one you remember by. See for example we probably all remember the latest antic of WB church, or creationist, but the whole bulk of christian are not like that, and we don't remmember them.

So guess who will the people rememmber in average ? not the thoughtful blog post, but the loud obnoxious toxic one.

Is there absolutely anyone here making the argument that the WB church represents the "face of christianity"? No. Because that would obviously be incredibly ignorant. Deliberately ignoring the vast history, writings, divisional sects, and ongoing evolution of the christian movement and millions of christians in the world in order to claim that one little group represents everything that's wrong with christianity would be very bad logic indeed.

Does any one of you honestly think that christians world wide really should be concerned about how the WB church might damage their reputation as a religion?

And yet you want to do just that with the feminist movement. You want to pigeonhole hundreds of years of history, writings, movements, divisions, social changes and schools of thought, from mainstream to esoteric to radical into a few bloggers and tweeters that some think are behaving rudely.


Pffft. Cherry picking is a logical fallacy. Cut it out.

If, on the other hand, you honestly believe that these few bloggers somehow represent the vast majority of feminist thought, then your education has been seriously lacking. I wonder why that is.

Now that might actually be some real feminist discourse. Why would your formal education not include a history of the feminist movement as part of a well rounded humanities or social studies curriculum?
 

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