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Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

How can you know what I based my post on oz? You're making assumptions now. Which is why you're incorrect.

My post has everything to do with a single question which sums up almost everything in this thread.

How can someone determine what will/what did cause global collapse of a structure.

The single column failure scenario is AFTER the fact and even when using visual evidence, we STILL cannot determine exactly what happened. The ONLY way to get a reliable sequence of failure events is to develop computer models and compare each one to the visual data and see which on comes close to what we saw. That would take forever.

Trying to figure out if a structure will globally collapse during the design phase is impossible because of the number of component failure combinations/permutations. It would take forever for an engineer to test ALL possible failure scenarios to make sure none of them could cause a global collapse.


There's this from wiki:

"Forensic engineering is the investigation of materials, products, structures or components that fail or do not operate or function as intended, causing personal injury or damage to property. The consequences of failure are dealt with by the law of product liability. The field also deals with retracing processes and procedures leading to accidents in operation of vehicles or machinery. The subject is applied most commonly in civil law cases, although it may be of use in criminal law cases. Generally, the purpose of a forensic engineering investigation is to locate cause or causes of failure with a view to improve performance or life of a component, or to assist a court in determining the facts of an accident. It can also involve investigation of intellectual property claims, especially patents."

and this:

"There is some common ground between forensic science and forensic engineering, such as scene of crime and scene of accident analysis, integrity of the evidence and court appearances. Both disciplines make extensive use of optical and scanning electron microscopes, for example. They also share common use of spectroscopy (infrared, ultraviolet, and nuclear magnetic resonance) to examine critical evidence. Radiography using X-rays (such as X-ray computed tomography), or neutrons is also very useful in examining thick products for their internal defects before destructive examination is attempted. Often, however, a simple hand lens may reveal the cause of a particular problem.

Trace evidence is sometimes an important factor in reconstructing the sequence of events in an accident. For example, tire burn marks on a road surface can enable vehicle speeds to be estimated, when the brakes were applied and so on. Ladder feet often leave a trace of movement of the ladder during a slipaway, and may show how the accident occurred. When a product fails for no obvious reason, SEM and Energy-dispersive X‑ray spectroscopy (EDX) performed in the microscope can reveal the presence of aggressive chemicals that have left traces on the fracture or adjacent surfaces. Thus an acetal resin water pipe joint suddenly failed and caused substantial damages to a building in which it was situated. Analysis of the joint showed traces of chlorine, indicating a stress corrosion cracking failure mode. The failed fuel pipe junction mentioned above showed traces of sulfur on the fracture surface from the sulfuric acid, which had initiated the crack.

Extracting physical evidence from digital photography is a major technique used in forensic accident reconstruction. Camera matching, photogrammetry, and photo rectification techniques are used to create three dimensional and top-down views from the two-dimensional photos typically taken at an accident scene. Overlooked or undocumented evidence for accident reconstruction can be retrieved and quantified as long as photographs of such evidence are available. By using photographs of the accident scene including the vehicle, "lost" evidence can be recovered and accurately determined.[1]"

and this:

"One of the first major inquiries conducted by the newly formed Railway Inspectorate was conducted by Captain Simmons of the Royal Engineers, and his report suggested that repeated flexing of the girder weakened it substantially. He examined the broken parts of the main girder, and confirmed that the girder had broken in two places, the first break occurring at the center. He tested the remaining girders by driving a locomotive across them, and found that they deflected by several inches under the moving load. He concluded that the design was flawed, and that the wrought iron trusses fixed to the girders did not reinforce the girders at all, which was a conclusion also reached by the jury at the inquest. Stephenson's design had depended on the wrought iron trusses to strengthen the final structures, but they were anchored on the cast iron girders themselves, and so deformed with any load on the bridge. Others (especially Stephenson) argued that the train had derailed and hit the girder, the impact force causing it to fracture. However, eye witnesses maintained that the girder broke first and the fact that the locomotive remained on the track showed otherwise"

and this:

"Causes of Failure

Structural failure does not have to be a "catastrophic collapse"; it may be a "nonconformity with design expectations" or a "deficient performance." Collapse is usually attributed to inadequate strength and/or stability, while deficient performance, or so-called serviceability problems, are usually the result of abnormal deterioration, excessive deformation, and signs of distress. In short, failure may be characterized as the unacceptable difference between intended and actual performance.

What can go wrong in the design-construction process and in the use of a structure that may result in immediate or eventual failure? A lot!

Negligence: failure to properly analyze or detail the design, or disregard codes and standards.

Incompetence: failure to understand engineering principles or respect the technical limitations of materials or systems.

Ignorance, oversight: failure to follow design documents and safe construction practices.

Greed: Short-cuts; intentional disregard of industry requirements and safe practices.

Disorganization: failure to establish a clear organization and define roles and responsibilities of parties.

Miscommunication: failure to establish and maintain lines of communication between parties.

Misuse, abuse, neglect: using the facility for purposes beyond its design intent or foregoing preventive maintenance.

Any one of these can be the underlying reason for an eventual failure of the structure and the resulting claims/disputes/litigations.

All of the parties on a construction project have legal responsibilities as defined by their contracts, and by state and federal laws. But professionals performing "value engineering" and "peer reviews" generally do not have liability for the safety of the constructed facility.

I don't feel we got our money's worth from NIST. I was surprised (aren't you?) that the key steel failiures were not located and tested?

So absent a reason for confidence in NIST I default to the position that they were "incompetent" or for some reason failed to produce the best fit explanations without having to essentially make up the inputs for the models (and 7wtc's didn't even match real world).

While details may not matter...broad strokes do...and use of "heat" as the broad stroke is not worth $16MM and reveals nothing we hadn't suspected back on 9/11/01.
 
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How can you know what I based my post on oz?
scratch.gif
The underlying assumptions are inherent in what you said.
You're making assumptions now. Which is why you're incorrect.
Wanna bet??? :)

More seriously I comprehended what you said. I was suggesting a viable and IMO preferable option - other than "wear the risk because we cannot analyse all possibilities". You can usually in reality quantify the risks and either eliminate them or accommodate them. Specific to each situation naturally.

You expressed it this way:
...Trying to figure out if a structure will globally collapse during the design phase is impossible because of the number of component failure combinations/permutations. It would take forever for an engineer to test ALL possible failure scenarios to make sure none of them could cause a global collapse.
..I understood that from your first post. I suggested a viable alternative.

It is an "alligators and swamps" issue which routinely comes up in managing engineering. So ask:

Q1: "What are we trying to achieve?"

A1: "Prevent collapse of a building through single element structural failure".

Q2:"How can we do that?"

A2: Two ways of doing that viz:
1) Check all combinations and permutations of single element vulnerability presuming single element can be removed; (The one you identified and judged impractical) OR
2) Ensure that all options for removal of single elements are prevented/managed. (The alternate I proposed.)

Note also that "2)" is better from a risk management perspective. "1)" leaves risk there and unquantified whereas "2)" explicitly manages the risk.

Hence path 2 is often more viable.

Then I indicated what I think are the only two likely causes of removal of a single element whether the structure was vulnerable to that specific removal or not:

1) Accidental damage. I used MVA as a likely cause. The issue is that no MVA is likely to cleanly remove a column even in a building that is vulnerable to removal of that specific single column. So bending but not removal and structural redundancy would cover plausible accidents. The scale of the WTC7 Col 79 is "slightly out of the range" of being taken out by accidental impact. It was one humongous big bit of fabricated steel.

2) Deliberate human intervention (malicious or naive) - someone cuts out a column. This one could cause global collapse IF the building is vulnerable. So the decision is "do we test all the options - as per your scenario OR do we risk manage and take other preventive methods?" That is a situation specific need for explicit decision and could take either path depending on the situation specifics.
 
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...

I don't feel we got our money's worth from NIST. I was surprised (aren't you?) that the key steel failiures were not located and tested?

So absent a reason for confidence in NIST I default to the position that they were "incompetent" or for some reason failed to produce the best fit explanations without having to essentially make up the inputs for the models (and 7wtc's didn't even match real world).

While details may not matter...broad strokes do...and use of "heat" as the broad stroke is not worth $16MM and reveals nothing we hadn't suspected back on 9/11/01. .
I think you suspected the inside job junk, why else would a rational person join Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth?

Wow, that was a lot of SPAM, no wonder you are confused about 911. You are looking for tire tracks...

WTC7 did not match real world. What did not match the real world? Do you make this up on opinion, or some math stuff?

On 911 we know the cause, you said that. Without fire fighting support and water, WTC 7 failed. But you knew it was not true? When? Did you find the skid marks of a crime? Ignore the lack of water, ignore the fire burning all day.

You thought it was an inside job, so you joined Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, or you joined Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and because you are an architect, and you associate with Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth who spread lies? Have false opinions?

You sure do have a lot of opinions. Did fire do it? Yes you already said so, or implied the same.

The cool part, we don't need another investigation. WHY?
A building that burned all day is totaled anyway, even if it stands. The BS from the SPAM is cool, you look up stuff, but fail to realize the building was totaled before it collapsed. You can't use it anymore, even if it stands. WTC 5, gone, WTC 6, gone, fire.

The only reason you and 911 truth can't grasp fire, it happened during the day, and it did not look like fire; or some problem understanding fire. Or what? Was it 2 1/2, or 4, why do you make up stuff?
 
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I think you suspected the inside job junk, why else would a rational person join Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth?

Wow, that was a lot of SPAM, no wonder you are confused about 911. You are looking for tire tracks...

WTC7 did not match real world. What did not match the real world? Do you make this up on opinion, or some math stuff?

On 911 we know the cause, you said that. Without fire fighting support and water, WTC 7 failed. But you knew it was not true? When? Did you find the skid marks of a crime? Ignore the lack of water, ignore the fire burning all day.

You thought it was an inside job, so you joined Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, or you joined Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and because you are an architect, and you associate with Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth who spread lies? Have false opinions?

You sure do have a lot of opinions. Did fire do it? Yes you already said so, or implied the same.

The cool part, we don't need another investigation. WHY?
A building that burned all day is totaled anyway, even if it stands. The BS from the SPAM is cool, you look up stuff, but fail to realize the building was totaled before it collapsed. You can't use it anymore, even if it stands. WTC 5, gone, WTC 6, gone, fire.

The only reason you and 911 truth can't grasp fire, it happened during the day, and it did not look like fire; or some problem understanding fire. Or what? Was it 2 1/2, or 4, why do you make up stuff?

No I didn't think it was an inside job... that dog won't hunt.

And I do not dispute that heat was one of the causes of the collapse.

I make stuff up because I am creative!
 
Ok - would you accept "pink sardine"?
I would also accept vermilion bass, or crimson cod

Otherwise spot on. [qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/clap.gif[/qimg]
(I should know better than try to derail you. :blush: :( )
Well you know,,, that's how I rolls.

[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/thumbup.gif[/qimg]
...I hope you are not suggesting that no-one around here would have problems processing limit cases? :boggled:
Lord forbid!!
True. And in the case of Twin Towers we already have two far better examples than any physical model - unless you have psikological barriers to accepting reality.

Winner of the twist on a phrase award,, the Ozzie Engineer
 
Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Ok - would you accept "pink sardine"?
I would also accept vermilion bass, or crimson cod

Enough with the euphemisms. This isn't a dirty joke thread.
 
No I didn't think it was an inside job... that dog won't hunt.

And I do not dispute that heat was one of the causes of the collapse.

I make stuff up because I am creative!

Very creative...
The AE911Truth’s irrefutable conclusion and exhaustive body of evidence that the towers were destroyed by explosive demolition is supported by the work of many engineers, scientists and forensic investigators and have made this evidence available on their web site AE911Truth.org.
Dog don't hunt...

In the case of the Pentagon attack scores of surveillance videos were confiscated and never released to the public which could buttress the conclusion that a 757 struck the building. In fact, not a single image of a plane hitting or about to hit the building has ever been released. How and why was this evidence withheld? Could there be a rational reason not to release these images and video?
You are an inside job guy. How many cameras at your house are pointed at the sky to catch a 757 impact? This is funny, because proof is the FDR sitting in the Pentagon, and like this inability to switch gears away from paranoid junk about your government, you use the same mental state to attack NIST, WTC7, and other stuff about 911.

You had to be an inside job guy, because you joined A&E.
No explanation was given why all the normal measures taken for defeating a hijacking were not taken 4 times in the span of several hours that day. Where was the world’s best and most advanced defense department that day?
Oops, inside job stuff - will this help you now to solve why you can't figure out a single column failure? You don't do any real work, you make up claims without researching. Here is NORAD, not researched, so you make up BS you plagiarized from 911 truth, and now you got NIST, so you make up stuff about NIST.

What made you stop the inside job junk, like the camera crap? You are still after NIST, but you agree with the cause, fire. Then drop NIST, unless you can prove your fantasy in the post above about NIST. It would be news.

Like this level of paranoia or BS, you apply this to NIST, WTC7, etc.

models (and 7wtc's didn't even match real world).
You can't flesh this out, you can't explain this made up nonsense. Prove it. What did not match?
 
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Very creative...
Dog don't hunt...


You are an inside job guy. How many cameras at your house are pointed at the sky to catch a 757 impact? This is funny, because proof is the FDR sitting in the Pentagon, and like this inability to switch gears away from paranoid junk about your government, you use the same mental state to attack NIST, WTC7, and other stuff about 911.

You had to be an inside job guy, because you joined A&E.
Oops, inside job stuff - will this help you now to solve why you can't figure out a single column failure? You don't do any real work, you make up claims without researching. Here is NORAD, not researched, so you make up BS you plagiarized from 911 truth, and now you got NIST, so you make up stuff about NIST.

What made you stop the inside job junk, like the camera crap? You are still after NIST, but you agree with the cause, fire. Then drop NIST, unless you can prove your fantasy in the post above about NIST. It would be news.

Like this level of paranoia or BS, you apply this to NIST, WTC7, etc.

You can't flesh this out, you can't explain this made up nonsense. Prove it. What did not match?

Woof woof you're barking up the wrong tree... no one's listening but it's damn annoying at the same time.
 
Woof woof you're barking up the wrong tree... no one's listening but it's damn annoying at the same time.
No, they are reading, you got that right. No one is listening, unless they have the text to talk on, or blind, and someone IS reading it, and listening. You might be wrong.


I thought you were an inside job believer, and then stopped? But you seem to deny being an inside job believer. Anyway...

Is your inside job stand on 911 a problem understanding NIST. Since you believe explosives did all three buildings?


NIST makes the case that the failure of column 79 on floor 13 apparently caused by a girder walking off its beam seat at column 79 led pretty quickly to the collapse of the entire building leaving nothing standing at all.

I wonder... how universal this actually is?

Would column 79 failing at floor 29 have caused the global collapse?

Would any other single column failing on any floor lead to global collapse?

Could any single column failing on any other floor NOT lead to global collapse? (I don't suspect the failure of a column at the roof level would.) If so why or why not?

Is this single column failure applicable to any multi story high rise? Would it have to be steel framed? Would it have to be a minimum building height? Would there have to be a minimum number of floors above the failed column?

If the single column failure global collapse outcome is not more or less universally applicable what was it about 7 WTC's design and column failure at floor 13 that allowed for a single column failure to lead to global collapse?

Should NIST have discussed this or not?

It is like you are trying to back in CD, or something.

This is not a universal thing, it is when buildings have major fires kind of thing. Or some idiots bomb a building, etc. If WTC 7 had started on fire on 9/10, fire fighting would put out the fire before major damage was done.

We can study past fires to see where things went wrong.

Would column 79 failing at floor 29 have caused the global collapse?
Go ask a structural engineer. What are the global conditions? Looks like you should have gone to engineering school.


Would any other single column failing on any floor lead to global collapse?
Is this constant silly questions leading to ... an attack on NIST. You can still go to engineering school, or buy some help from an engineer, who will ask you to define initial conditions and you will be unable to. You can't define your question to make it rational.


Finally the OP.
Should NIST have discussed this or not?
No, it was not their goal to answer silly questions.

The answer remains no.
 
No I didn't think it was an inside job... that dog won't hunt.

And I do not dispute that heat was one of the causes of the collapse.

I make stuff up because I am creative!


All discussion of what happened inside the buildings is pure speculation apparently designed to run out the clock.

News flash, people care more about their electronic devices than they do about waging illegal wars. The clock has already stopped.
 
Ozzie,
I like and respect you. In this you are wrong and seemingly can't admit for some reason. If you can't defend the single column failure in general or the column 79 floor 13 one of NIST in particular. So be it.

It is NIST's feet you should be holding to the fire here not mine and hustle off when you have to defend them.
That is what we here in Texas (and new mexico and Colorado) call a Goddamned Lie.
NIST presented 4 scenarios, which represent different modes of failure.
All led to the exact same conclusion: The building fell, just as it did in reality.

That is pretty much the best that can be done.
 
All discussion of what happened inside the buildings is pure speculation apparently designed to run out the clock.

News flash, people care more about their electronic devices than they do about waging illegal wars. The clock has already stopped.

Newsflash, all discussion about fake this or fake that is pure speculation and the clock ran out on truthers years ago.
 
Newsflash, all discussion about fake this or fake that is pure speculation and the clock ran out on truthers years ago.

Nonsense. If that was the case there would be no need for the Architects and Engineers, Simon Shack and Judy Wood to lead the curious away to waste time investigating "collapses", "everything is fake" and imaginary DEW weapons. There would be no need for this place either.
 
Nonsense. If that was the case there would be no need for the Architects and Engineers, Simon Shack and Judy Wood to lead the curious away to waste time investigating "collapses", "everything is fake" and imaginary DEW weapons. There would be no need for this place either.

I agree with you: there is no need for A&E, Shack, Wood or any other woomonger. Thank you for pointing this out.
 
That is what we here in Texas (and new mexico and Colorado) call a Goddamned Lie.
Actually the frst five words are a truth and, believe it or not, I hold him in similar high regard.

However what follows is not "a Goddamned Lie". It is in fact:
1) Four explicit untruths;
2) One "strawman" which embeds two untruths by innuendo:

where for each one the word "untruth" could potentially be replaced by "lie" depending on the evidence supporting "knowledge of untruth" and "intent to knowingly utter the untruth. :teacher:

THEN
...NIST presented 4 scenarios, which represent different modes of failure.
Is simple truth about which I why I had spent some time hinting that Sander should read NIST. Because:
1) One of them (#4) gave Sander what he was claiming - WTC 7 vulnerable to single column - Col 79 - failure; AND
2) The two different fire scenarios which actually bracketed he target. Classic gunnery - target bracketed - "Fire for Effect!"
That is pretty much the best that can be done.
Well at least it is a good as is needed for any legitimate need. :D
 
Actually the frst five words are a truth and, believe it or not, I hold him in similar high regard.

However what follows is not "a Goddamned Lie". It is in fact:
1) Four explicit untruths;
2) One "strawman" which embeds two untruths by innuendo:

where for each one the word "untruth" could potentially be replaced by "lie" depending on the evidence supporting "knowledge of untruth" and "intent to knowingly utter the untruth. :teacher:

THEN
Is simple truth about which I why I had spent some time hinting that Sander should read NIST. Because:
1) One of them (#4) gave Sander what he was claiming - WTC 7 vulnerable to single column - Col 79 - failure; AND
2) The two different fire scenarios which actually bracketed he target. Classic gunnery - target bracketed - "Fire for Effect!"
Well at least it is a good as is needed for any legitimate need. :D
Having spent a fair portion of my career correlating the differences between Testing (Reality) and FEA, the phrase "Legitimate need" swings a mighty wide loop here.
(BTW-I included NM in my wording because I grew up there, and in fact, am a "Sand Aggie" from just South of Newton's Bit (who is a "Hippie", and spend much time in Colorado, too.)
 
Having spent a fair portion of my career correlating the differences between Testing (Reality) and FEA, the phrase "Legitimate need" swings a mighty wide loop here.
(BTW-I included NM in my wording because I grew up there, and in fact, am a "Sand Aggie" from just South of Newton's Bit (who is a "Hippie", and spend much time in Colorado, too.)

Hey!
 

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