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Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

Odd, perhaps. Shoulda , yes IMHO.
Quintere also was frustrated that NIST chose not to condemn certain aspects regarding fire safety, the special fire codes for the PA, the fire stairs in the towers being in the center and using only drywall fire separation, non-cementatious steel fire 'proofing'.

I met James Quintere at a seminar where he was one of the presenters about NIST's performance as a disaster investigator. We corresponded after the seminar and my take away from the seminar was that NIST made several serious blunders including declining the assistance of the NTSB and using a NTSB-like system for cataloging evidence.

NTSB seems to be way ahead in this game and one wonders why with planes involved they were not part of the investigation.

The fire protection in the egress stairs of the twin towers was a joke.
 
....

Structural Engineering, amongst many other things, is about balancing risk with cost. We do not design buildings to be invincible. We set limits. For example, we design buildings for design seismic and wind events that do not correspond with theoretical maximums. Seismic hazards typically refer to a 5% chance of exceedence over a 50 year period (though more important buildings have a lower rate). Wind hazards are similar.

....

Engineers make mistakes as they did with the CitiCorp tower in NYC. They caught that and did a retrofit.. to deal with the 100yr storm. Obviously a retro fit for jumbo crashes would make little sense.

On the other hand, the twin towers were very cheaply built and bolted together and came apart pretty easily too. Fire egress protection was cheapo shaft wall and that was definitely a boneheaded decision to say PANY money... not an engineer savings.

Most decision making is a risk benefit at some level. well Duh...
 
I met James Quintere at a seminar where he was one of the presenters about NIST's performance as a disaster investigator. We corresponded after the seminar and my take away from the seminar was that NIST made several serious blunders including declining the assistance of the NTSB and using a NTSB-like system for cataloging evidence.

NTSB seems to be way ahead in this game and one wonders why with planes involved they were not part of the investigation.

The fire protection in the egress stairs of the twin towers was a joke.
Well, the NTSB are involved mostly to find out why an aircraft crashed. The FBI answered that question. Given no aircraft system or flight crew or maintenance consideration was ever in question they had nothing to investigate. They recommended that cockpit doors be closed and locked and a few other anti-hijacking measures but if I don't miss my guess they have no jurisdiction to make such things mandatory. In fact most anti-hijacking security measures still do not apply to private charters. You could chapter a Gulfstream G5 and not have to bother with TSA checks, nor have your luggage x-rayed, and you don't even have to produce proof of identity.
 
I met James Quintere at a seminar where he was one of the presenters about NIST's performance as a disaster investigator. We corresponded after the seminar and my take away from the seminar was that NIST made several serious blunders including declining the assistance of the NTSB and using a NTSB-like system for cataloging evidence.

NTSB seems to be way ahead in this game and one wonders why with planes involved they were not part of the investigation.

The fire protection in the egress stairs of the twin towers was a joke.
Why would they be part of the investigation? Is impact with a building and subsequent building collapse an airline or transportation safety concern? I would love to know exactly how James Quintere phrased this.
 
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Well, the NTSB are involved mostly to find out why an aircraft crashed. The FBI answered that question. Given no aircraft system or flight crew or maintenance consideration was ever in question they had nothing to investigate. They recommended that cockpit doors be closed and locked and a few other anti-hijacking measures but if I don't miss my guess they have no jurisdiction to make such things mandatory. In fact most anti-hijacking security measures still do not apply to private charters. You could chapter a Gulfstream G5 and not have to bother with TSA checks, nor have your luggage x-rayed, and you don't even have to produce proof of identity.

And the national institute of stands and technology is mostly involved in?

a - disaster investigations
b - a measurement standards laboratory
c - setting standards of weights and measures
d - all of the above
e - none of the above
f - other
 
Why would they be part of the investigation? Is impact with a building and subsequent building collapse an airline or transportation safety concern? I would love to know exactly how James Quintere phrased this.

He's an professor or fire science. He's interested in what fires do to structures.
 
On the other hand, the twin towers were very cheaply built and bolted together and came apart pretty easily too. Fire egress protection was cheapo shaft wall and that was definitely a boneheaded decision to say PANY money... not an engineer savings.


I have a friend who is a senior structures man at Arup. Some time ago were were briefly discussing structural performance on 9/11 and he recalled that there was some criticism of the perceived flimsy construction at the time the towers were built.

I don't believe that his view was in any way coloured by the Arup paper on the cause of collapse, incidentally.
 
I have a friend who is a senior structures man at Arup. Some time ago were were briefly discussing structural performance on 9/11 and he recalled that there was some criticism of the perceived flimsy construction at the time the towers were built.

I don't believe that his view was in any way coloured by the Arup paper on the cause of collapse, incidentally.

There is a discussion in their publication concerning lessons learned and implemented, in the 10th anniversary edition. Unfortunately one must subscribe to view.
 
Ozzie,

I am not going to cut and snip your post and respond to each idea and sentence.
I'm well aware of your style of discussion...and that whilst you appear to ignore suggestions made you do gradually pick up on the points.

You miss the trust of what I am trying to achieve....
Not really. I have tracked your thrust as it has evolved and where you are headed is gradually becoming clearer.

It is good to see that you are gradually distancing yourself from claims of criminal liability and the push for retrospective sanctions against those you deem guilty.

Your emerging focus is that NIST should have explained more for the general populace including some professionals. That is a reasonable claim. But it is a totally different subject to what you proposed in the OP. Tracking the evolution of your thinking is not difficult and again it is part of your style.

But remember, if you were a truther we would all be calling it "goal post shifting" and "evasions". :D
 
What exploded on floor 6 or so when Jennings and Hess tried to use the East stairs just to the east of the Sub Station which happened to be between TT#1 and TT#2 and in close proximity to electric switch gear, back up power generators and diesel day tanks... destroying the stair structure below them when they were a level 7?

Wasn't that from the north tower collapsing?
 
...I connected the dots which stood out to me. I can't prove anything. Nor can NIST. Nor can you! (or Ozzie)

Don't tempt me and please drop the unwarranted inferences.

I agree that neither you nor NIST can prove your respective hypotheses.

I am far more prudent. All I have claimed is:
A) In my opinion both your hypothesis and NIST's are plausible.
B) In my opinion it will never be possible to prove or disprove what initiated WTC EPH falling or the overall collapse. (And I'm using lay person language - stating that in pure scientific from would take a lot more words. ;))

You are right in that "Ozzie" cannot prove either your hypothesis OR NIST's. But I never claimed I could. But I can prove that those two claims are in fact my opinion.
 
Don't tempt me and please drop the unwarranted inferences.

I agree that neither you nor NIST can prove your respective hypotheses.

I am far more prudent. All I have claimed is:
A) In my opinion both your hypothesis and NIST's are plausible.
B) In my opinion it will never be possible to prove or disprove what initiated WTC EPH falling or the overall collapse. (And I'm using lay person language - stating that in pure scientific from would take a lot more words. ;))

You are right in that "Ozzie" cannot prove either your hypothesis OR NIST's. But I never claimed I could. But I can prove that those two claims are in fact my opinion.

We're on the same page here.
 
...Structural Engineering, amongst many other things, is about balancing risk with cost. We do not design buildings to be invincible. We set limits....
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I haven't been game - bold enough - to go there - other than mentioning "risk management". I emphasised these two in my explanation challenge for Sander.
1) Protect the people first << I said explicitly
2) Protect the building second << I said explicitly

I did not address
3) Improve US codes for resistance to progression

And the one which would probably be too hot to handle:
4) The policy decision - at both Government level AND Building developer industry level - will almost certainly be:
(i) Improve preventive security BUT
(ii) Ultimately "wear the risk". :boggled: :boxedin:

... For example, we design buildings for design seismic and wind events that do not correspond with theoretical maximums....
Known territory for civil engineers. The other members may be interested in a couple of related examples which are "non-structural". (Well - not high rise building structures for the first one.)

The world wide example where we (Engineering profession) have over the last 40+ years tried to design for "theoretical maximums" is in large dam design. The current "PMP - PMF" (Possible maximum precipitation - probable maximum flood [resulting from it]) design standard is as close to "design for worst case" as I am aware of. For the non-engineers - the old standard was usually "design for the 1 in 1000 year flood" - roughly explained as "for a 50 year old dam you have already taken a 1:20 risk" (Statistics pedants - yes I know but it is good enough to make the point simply. :o) Most of them built after mid-late 1800's and by 1930s - 50s quite a few were falling down - natural forces of hydrology - not those due to military action. So many large dams have been reassessed and reinforced. All seven of those serving Sydney.
...we don't want to do it. And that's okay.
That is the policy aspect I didn't want to raise...high risk of derail.

When "we" upgraded the Sydney Water Supply treatment processes ( my last big project in that job - 1989 onwards) the economists first round risk management calculations were in terms of "deaths per million customers from water supply contamination".

None of us wanted that discussion "out there". :boggled:

Ditto few would want to make a lot of noise over the realities of economic design of high rise buildings at the limits.

AND that was the unstated underpinning reason why I was so emphatic with Sander. The ultimate priority in the event of fire or major damage in a high rise building will remain as "get the people out". Because ultimately we cannot afford to protect the building at the extreme limits. So a "risk managed" decision with a limit.
 
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Well, the NTSB are involved mostly to find out why an aircraft crashed. The FBI answered that question. Given no aircraft system or flight crew or maintenance consideration was ever in question they had nothing to investigate. They recommended that cockpit doors be closed and locked and a few other anti-hijacking measures but if I don't miss my guess they have no jurisdiction to make such things mandatory. In fact most anti-hijacking security measures still do not apply to private charters. You could chapter a Gulfstream G5 and not have to bother with TSA checks, nor have your luggage x-rayed, and you don't even have to produce proof of identity.
First guess at the legals for that is:

Self assumed risk. The "chartering party" treated as an entity so the risk of hijack is from a member of the "chartering party" and therefore within itself.

The duty of care aspects start to arise when there is third party involvement.
 
The explosions were not THE cause of the collapse, but they were contributory to the progression of weakening and failures.

.

You're merely guessing here. And most probably wrong.

This whole issue, similar to the " bombs in the building " truther meme, falls at free fall speed into a steaming pile. Cutting steel requires a certain brissance, etc from the explosive charges being used. And must be precisely focused an spaced ftm the steel.

Claiming that a transformer explosion can cause damage to large steel columns and beams is what we like to say is an extraordinary claim. You know what it takes to make anyone consider it.
 
This is just rubbish, all of the structural steel in that building is designed for a failure here and there.
Horse hockey. Three cantilevered members held up most of the weight at street level.

The building was already showing signs of instability when the FDNY surveyor scoped it wirh a transit hours before the collapse.
 

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