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Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

No, I am not, as the CTBUH has absolutely rejected any conspiracy conjecture that the fires were not responsible for the collapse nor have they done anything other than suggest that IF the fea is redone, that there be some modifications.
In short, no one other than AE911T is demanding a do-over.
You can't seriously think that the CTBUH agrees with NIST on the initiation surely? Whilst I fully accept that the CTBUH said that they did not agree with the "911 truth movement", they did not specify which views they did not agree with. They did however ask if the inclusion of stiffener plates would have prevented the failure that NIST supposed. They asked this while the report was out for public comment.
Seems to me that they spotted that NIST had made some serious errors and their questions went unanswered.
 
Did NIST omit the stiffeners? Admitted
Did NIST confuse 11" with 12"? Admitted
Have NIST dealt with the consequences of these admitted errors and omissions? NO
And neither have you.



This is your argument in a nutshell:

David Ortiz hits a double, then goes on to score in a game the Red Sox win 12-3.

AFTER the game, upon reviewing the game, the official scorekeeper changes it to a single and a 1 base error on the right fielder.

Is the conclusion different? Did they not win 12-3 regardless of Ortiz getting a double or a single with an error?

Your missing jolts, your little stiffeners, indeed all of the nit-picked minutae you people insist means something, means nothing. It changes nothing.
 
This is your argument in a nutshell:
You wish.

David Ortiz hits a double, then goes on to score in a game the Red Sox win 12-3.

AFTER the game, upon reviewing the game, the official scorekeeper changes it to a single and a 1 base error on the right fielder.

Is the conclusion different? Did they not win 12-3 regardless of Ortiz getting a double or a single with an error?

Your missing jolts, your little stiffeners, indeed all of the nit-picked minutae you people insist means something, means nothing. It changes nothing.
Dumb does not even begin to describe the above.
How far would the girder need to be pushed in order to fail?
Here's a clue, it doesn't have anything to do with sports games.
 
You wish.


Dumb does not even begin to describe the above.
How far would the girder need to be pushed in order to fail?
Here's a clue, it doesn't have anything to do with sports games.

Your problem is, you are treating the girder in virtual isolation. Plug it into the rest of the 3D system, with heating values, and let's see if that 0.75" flange and stiffener really holds up to the floor load at temperature.
 
Your problem is, you are treating the girder in virtual isolation. Plug it into the rest of the 3D system, with heating values, and let's see if that 0.75" flange and stiffener really holds up to the floor load at temperature.
Let's be clear here. The 0.75" difference was in the push that NIST said the girder would require ie 6.25 - 5.5.
6.25 is unattainable from a 53ft beam and still will not result in the failure that NIST suppose it would.
 
Nobody used an 11" seat anywhere in this connection. Have you actually looked into this issue at all?

OK, 12 inch seat, and the girder moved such that, let's say 40% of the girder bottom flange was not on the seat.
The whole thing, seat, flange, girder, column, stiffener plates, is hot, several hundred degrees C.

Yet this is supposedly absolutely safe and enough to keep the floor from failing.
Except,,,, its hasn't been shown that this situation would in fact disallow girder roll off. That is a bare assumption, conjecture , on AE911T's part.

You want an fea that reflects every aspect of the real situation? OK go for it. Include forces on column 79 due to expansion of the beam between 76 and 79, include heat effects on the seat, on the bottom flange, on the stiffener plates.
Include the entire ceiling, and floor of that level as well as the one above and below.
Include a model of transfer of stresses from the destruction of the south face, I.e. the loss of the entire SW corner.

Then there are the unknowns, for instance, what caused an elevator car to be ejected from its shaft at the fifth floor? Could that indicate core column twisting above the fifth floor?

In short, the NIST fea that shows significant movement of the girder is entirely consistent with that the theory that this girder failed at its seat to col 79.

A column 79 failure is the most likely explanation of the first visible roof top event, the in falling of the EPH. A loss of the girder at col 79 is consistent with the theory that this resulted in a failure of the hot col 79.

If AE911T has another theory to put forth that is as consistent with observables then perhaps they should bring it forth. Up to now its been now its been nothing but "NIST is wrong!", and absolute handwaving about explosive or incendiary demolitions.
 
How far was that you said the girder would need to move?
Maybe we could talk about football instead.

Here's a thought - instead of just saying my analogy was dumb, why not explain it to me. Where did it fail?

As for football - Tom Brady throws a pass from 5. It's caught and run all the way into the end zone for YET ANOTHER touchdown. This one from 95 yards.

Oops.

After the game it seems he was really on the 6. So instead of a 95 yarder, it's a 94 yarder. Does the conclusion (a touchdown) still stand?
 
Tell me, if you were to succeed in proving that the girder connection doesn't fail, what then? What is the logical conclusion that would follow from your analysis? And don't give me any of this "NIST needs to rerun their analysis" tripe; that's not the question. My question to you is, what are the implications and conclusions that can be drawn directly from your analysis? Or to phrase it another way, so what if NIST is wrong? What does that mean?
 
You can't seriously think that the CTBUH agrees with NIST on the initiation surely? Whilst I fully accept that the CTBUH said that they did not agree with the "911 truth movement", they did not specify which views they did not agree with. They did however ask if the inclusion of stiffener plates would have prevented the failure that NIST supposed. They asked this while the report was out for public comment.
Seems to me that they spotted that NIST had made some serious errors and their questions went unanswered.

Holy carp! You haven't read the CBTUH response have you?!
http://www.ctbuh.org/Publications/T...ISTWTC7/tabid/739/language/en-US/Default.aspx
Please read the introduction if nothing else, especially the third and the last paragraphs of it. The, in no uncertain terms accept that floor failure due to fire led to collapse.
AND that they put " no credibility whatsoever" in the 9/11 truth movement.

While they did not categorically listed every truth movement assertion they include in thus statement, its patently clear what the phrase " no credibility whatsoever" means. Your purile attempt to suggest that they see any credibility in the assertions of AE911T is sophistry at its finest. Gerry.
 
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:dl:

They got it 'totally' wrong? The building is still there?? Wow.

That is exactly the point not being comprehended by the Truthers. NIST was going into the simulation knowing that a successful simulation would have to be a failure of the building. The Truthers keep trying to find things that would not result in the building failing. They are totally attacking NIST on the wrong basis.
 
Tell me, if you were to succeed in proving that the girder connection doesn't fail, what then? What is the logical conclusion that would follow from your analysis? And don't give me any of this "NIST needs to rerun their analysis" tripe; that's not the question. My question to you is, what are the implications and conclusions that can be drawn directly from your analysis? Or to phrase it another way, so what if NIST is wrong? What does that mean?
The logical conclusion is that the collapse of WTC7 should be revisited and modeled accurately in order to evaluate just how susceptible to collapse due to fire high rise buildings really are.
NIST ARE wrong. They need to deal with this and produce a report that makes sense and withdraw that which doesn't.
Even if they end up saying that they cannot explain the collapse, that is better than having something that makes no sense whatsoever in their report.
 
That is exactly the point not being comprehended by the Truthers. NIST was going into the simulation knowing that a successful simulation would have to be a failure of the building. The Truthers keep trying to find things that would not result in the building failing. They are totally attacking NIST on the wrong basis.
NIST said that the girder was pushed 6.25". That is not possible from the beams that they said did it.
 
The logical conclusion is that the collapse of WTC7 should be revisited and modeled accurately in order to evaluate just how susceptible to collapse due to fire high rise buildings really are.
NIST ARE wrong. They need to deal with this and produce a report that makes sense and withdraw that which doesn't.
Even if they end up saying that they cannot explain the collapse, that is better than having something that makes no sense whatsoever in their report.

Not the question I asked. The question I asked is, if your analysis is correct, what are the logical conclusions that can be deduced from it?
 

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