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Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

Oh but they have; they determined that fires played a central role in contributing to the collapses. They also determined that certain design approaches utilized in the buildings contributed to their being vulnerable to a particular collapse mechanism. Both are supported by well documented evidence. Some specifics are in dispute as emphasized by the OP creator and engineers that have criticized the reports on the report being too conservative on their models. But those criticisms affect BUILDING CODE recommendations, they don't place dispute on the fact that the fires were a main cause. But you clearly appear reluctant to be dragged into any discussion that forces you to live up to your burden of proof in showing how a "CD" is worth discussing as it relates to this thread.

The pertinent structural feature omissions make the NIST collapse initiation hypothesis impossible. So how can you give them credit for determining how the collapse initiated or that certain structural configurations made the building vulnerable to collapsing via fire?
 
You proved it was not CD. And you proved there was more than enough energy in a gravity collapse to eject stuff to hit WTC 7.

Better take your CD fantasy to a fantasy forum.


Can a fire compromised building suffer the slow failure WTC 7 did when a single column fails? You have not shown a significant number of calculations to support CD.

My calculations showed the exact opposite of what you are saying. They showed it was highly unlikely that anything of significant size could have been ejected forcefully enough from WTC 1 due to natural processes to allow it to travel the 350 feet over to WTC 7 and ignite fires.

It has also been shown that the girder between columns 44 and 79 could not have come off its seat due to natural processes, if the stiffeners on it were included in the analysis. If that girder doesn't fail due to natural processes column 79 can't fail due to natural processes.

It is the present official story tellers who have promoted a fantasy, that you seem to have swallowed hook, line, and sinker. That would be initially understandable, but your continuing support of it, in the face of superior contradictory information, now makes you a fantasy supporter.
 
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Exactly

Why do you think there are pages and pages of people telling you you are wrong.

You are unaware of reality

Your comments provide no evidence that you even fully comprehend what is being discussed, so how you have managed to convince yourself that I am wrong is hard to understand.
 
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Your comments provide no evidence that you even fully comprehend what is being discussed, so how you have managed to convince yourself that I am wrong is hard to understand.

Tony that doesn't work on me, I am NOT a Truther
 
Tony that doesn't work on me, I am NOT a Truther

It doesn't matter if you are a Truther or not. Your comments show you don't seem to comprehend what is being discussed or you are being intentionally obtuse and disingenuous and trying to disrupt the discussion.
 
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It doesn't matter if you are a Truther or not. Your comments show you don't seem to comprehend what is being discussed or you are being intentionally obtuse and disingenuous and trying to disrupt the discussion.

Ok Tony,

You have my posts show where I don't comprehend.

Let's look at my posts today,

you were accusing DGM of having inside information on the Pepper letter

I provided Mucs post which shows what DGM was talking about.

You drop the subject and move on.

And you tell me I can't comprehend.
 
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My point is that there are a series of things that significantly decrease the chances of burning debris getting into WTC 7


1. WTC 1 only had parts of about four floors ablaze when it collapsed so there was a limited amount of "burning debris".

2. The gypsum and concrete dust generated by the collapse would have smothered the fires shortly after the collapse initiated. Beachnut and Animal say this is impossible but don't provide any basis for their opinions.

3. The collapse would have caused conduction of heat to cooler material.

4. WTC 7 was 350 feet away from WTC 1, whose collapse was vertical. Gaining the required horizontal velocity to make the trip across to WTC 7 required large horizontal forces to be applied to debris that also happened to still be hot enough, in spite of the above, to start fires.

5. WTC 7's façade was not easy to simply fly through and now you and Jaydeehess are proposing that there was pathfinder debris that need to create a breach first. This has a very low probability of occurrence over ten floors of WTC 7.

6. The Verizon and Post Office buildings did not suffer penetration of their exteriors.

7. Although hit with some debris the Verizon and Post Office buildings were not set ablaze.

8. There is no photographic evidence of fires in WTC 7 until 1 hour and 47 minutes after the collapse of WTC 1.

The above show that the odds are extraordinarily low that the fires on ten floors of WTC 7 were generated by hot debris from WTC 1. It looks like WTC 7's fires were due to arson with the collapse of the towers blamed.
Now that's a serious disconnection from reality. NCSTAR 1-5A fig. 5-118 proves point 1 wrong. They were 63x63m (almost 4000m²) floors that were burning out of control. One of the biggest uncontrolled fires in buildings that has ever happened in history, if not the biggest, and you dismiss it as "limited amount". You need a reality check.

On points 2 and 3, the dust must cover the fuel pretty well. A moving cloud of dust is not as effective to put out flames. Especially if the moving cloud of dust includes the fuel. The winds provide oxygen to the burning debris. And even if we imagine that the fires could be put out by the dust, they could still smolder while flying. A smoldering piece of paper was enough to set WTC7 on fire, if it went right into the guts of the building through the gash opened by the impact. Remember that after the impact from the toppling piece of wall from WTC1 came the dust cloud.

Point 4 is silly. The dust cloud covered many more blocks, and fires were set past WTC7. Again, a reality check.

Point 5 is about the probability of occurrence of the building first getting a gash from the falling debris (reality check: it did) and then catching fire (reality check: debris set fire on many cars around and past WTC7). Non-starter.

On points 6 and 7, these buildings did not have a massive piece of debris hitting them. No reason for such penetration. And you will have to explain the status of the sprinkler system in those buildings before claiming that fires weren't started in them. It's possible they were started and extinguished.

On point 8, how do you take photographs of a building in the middle of a dust cloud, when you can barely see a guy who is 10m away from you?

The above shows how disconnected from reality your points are. You need to step back and rethink your claims.
 
So in your opinion the vast majority of debris wasn't dense enough to smother fires, and it was only a very small minority of debris that was dense enough to collapse the building and fly over to WTC 7 to set it ablaze.

The smell of troofer desperation is in the air. It is not opinion - it is FACT that the falling debris caused fires and was not smothered by dust.

As for "small amount of debris to collapse the building etc" once again a troofer making stuff up to prop up his religion. :rolleyes:
 
Ok Tony,

You have my posts show where I don't comprehend.

Let's look at my posts today,

you were accusing DGM of having inside information on the Pepper letter

I provided Mucs post which shows what DGM was talking about.

You drop the subject and move on.

And you tell me I can't comprehend.

TS is getting exhaustion confusion.......it is a lot of work to constantly lug those goal posts around. :rolleyes:
 
TS is getting exhaustion confusion.......it is a lot of work to constantly lug those goal posts around. :rolleyes:
Indeed. What a waste of a day off. Here is a pertinent point that Mr. Szamboti can pretend to ignore.

No one doubts that a layer of dust can smother a fire Tony. However your organization has made the case that this particular dust was heavily laden enough with therm?te as to allow the rubble fires to burn for weeks. Now you wish to say that this therm?te laden dust is a fire suppressent. Do you or do you not, see a contradiction in that?

I expect a reply sometime around Memorial Day.
 
You are quick to ask for calculations from others, and I have done a number of calculations at your request, but have yet to see you do any to back what you claim or assert.

Claiming friction during impact could have started the fires in WTC 7 is a bold assertion that you have made. I have shown some logic saying it is not plausible. You need to provide something giving it plausibility, otherwise it is a shout in the dark.

I don't have to do calculations. My assertion is that fires destroyed the buildings, because I saw fires and then buildings collapsing. You are saying that invisible things caused the collapse, so you need to prove your invisible things existed. I brought out friction as a plausible source for fire, which you say could not have gone from one building to another. We saw one building collapse, saw another catch on fire after part of the other building fell on it. So we have a visible means of transmission. We know sparks can cause fire, and when metal hits metal, sparks happen. We also know one building was on fire before parts of it hit the other building.

In other words, you want to proove what we saw could not be a cause for fires. Your burden of proof to eliminate it to promote your invisible cause.

I have done a calculation, all I felt I had to do, in my free fall thread. I put it in the very OP. No Truther was able to mathematically or scientifically refute it. And yet you, Jesse Ventura, et al., to this day, keep bringing up 'free fall' as evidence of CD. Why should I do math, when you guys are just gonna keep on spouting the same old debunked religious creeds?
 
My calculations showed the exact opposite of what you are saying. They showed it was highly unlikely that anything of significant size could have been ejected forcefully enough from WTC 1 due to natural processes to allow it to travel the 350 feet over to WTC 7 and ignite fires.

It has also been shown that the girder between columns 44 and 79 could not have come off its seat due to natural processes, if the stiffeners on it were included in the analysis. If that girder doesn't fail due to natural processes column 79 can't fail due to natural processes.

It is the present official story tellers who have promoted a fantasy, that you seem to have swallowed hook, line, and sinker. That would be initially understandable, but your continuing support of it, in the face of superior contradictory information, now makes you a fantasy supporter.

CD is the fantasy, fire is reality. 911 truth ignores 19 murderers to spew lies about 911.
You can't even provide what was used, silent explosives or thermite, you can't specify how it was used, who did it, and why.

19 murderers had a why, who, and how. Ignore the simple evidence to make up nonsense only a few believe, nuts like the Boston Bombers and the next nut who acts on 911 truth lies. You spread lies which mislead people.

How paranoid is 911 truth? Look at your posts, empty claims backed with fantasy. You have no story, no evidence, no idea what happened. Your readcddeal can't tackle 93 and 77. Delusional fantasy.

Why have you failed to break the big story? no evidence - you could switch and reuse all your overwhelming evidence for Bigfoot, and stop mocking the murdered.
 
I have provided a significant number of calculations to back what I say in this thread alone. What universe do you live in that you don't recognize that?

I am seriously considering putting you on ignore, as you seem to be intent on just making wisecracks, and rarely make any value added comments.

You've provided what is required for your fantasy to become reality.

But it's just that - a fantasy.

You do understand the distinction between reality and fantasy?
 
You are forgetting that the debris also needed to be from the relatively small fire affected zone of WTC 1 to cause fires in WTC 7.

The friction theory is a non-starter.

How about electrical shorts due to WTC1 crashing into it and taking out over 25% of the base from the ground to the 15th floor. Remember there was a power station from the ground level to the 8th floor on the side that was impacted.

Oh right, you have me on ignore so what's the point in even posting!?!
 
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NIST was tasked with determining how WTC 7 collapsed and were given tens of millions of dollars to do so. They have not done that thus far. You can't just handwave it away.
NIST was tasked with "why" and "how" WTC 7 fell.

Why was determined to be fires and gravity, how was answered by presenting a plausible scenario.

Obviously answering "how", at this point, to a degree of accuracy 9/11 "truth" expects from the reports (although does not expect from within it's confines) could only be possible if instruments measuring every possible parameter of the specific structural elements was in place and recording before and during failure.

Of course that's an absurd expectation.
 
I don't have to do calculations. My assertion is that fires destroyed the buildings, because I saw fires and then buildings collapsing. You are saying that invisible things caused the collapse, so you need to prove your invisible things existed. I brought out friction as a plausible source for fire, which you say could not have gone from one building to another. We saw one building collapse, saw another catch on fire after part of the other building fell on it. So we have a visible means of transmission. We know sparks can cause fire, and when metal hits metal, sparks happen. We also know one building was on fire before parts of it hit the other building.
Ancient man used flint and iron pyrite to start fires by striking in order to create a spark. Ruling out steel on steel impact in regards to collapsing steel framed buildings seems like a desperate attempt to hand wave every possibility leaving only "truths" pet theory left standing.

Quite funny actually.

:D
 
Ancient man used flint and iron pyrite to start fires by striking in order to create a spark. Ruling out steel on steel impact in regards to collapsing steel framed buildings seems like a desperate attempt to hand wave every possibility leaving only "truths" pet theory left standing.

Quite funny actually.

:D

The real funny thing is that they don't think we can see it.
 

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