Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

[GlennB]

You mean the E12/13 floor plan I presume.
Feel free to make your point about the geometry etc and I will let you know if it is over my head or not.

Look at the angle between that girder and the 'restraining' beams. Apply some trig thoughts...

Clue: Is it possible to tension a wire strung between two *very* sturdy trees such that the wire becomes horizontal?

 

[DGM]

There are those in your administration who realise that there are pertinent questions that require an answer from NIST about their WTC7 report.

Who?

That the errors and omissions exist is not really something that is up for debate here.

That's because you're unwilling to understand why they are only this to you and no one else.

The extent to which they are relevant to NISTs conclusions is though, and this is something that should be demonstrated by accurate analysis. NIST have not produced an accurate analysis to date re WTC7.

No, your misapplication of the model is the only thing that makes them seem "relevant" to you.

They matter none to the purpose of the NIST report.

 

[gerrycan]

Look at the angle between that girder and the 'restraining' beams. Apply some trig thoughts...

I think we need some condition specifics. Temperatures etc

Clue: Is it possible to tension a wire strung between two *very* sturdy trees such that the wire becomes horizontal?

You need to say exactly what you mean here, referring to the elements as they are shown and named on the structural drawings.

 

[DGM]

I think we need some condition specifics. Temperatures etc

Not necessary for the concepts he's trying to get you to grasp. When you said you would tell him if it was over your head, you didn't answer correctly.

 

[gerrycan]

Who?

There is a lot more correspondence than one letter to the OIG going on here. There is a lot of concern over the IG allowing federal agencies to police themselves historically and many members have expressed this disquiet.

That's because you're unwilling to understand why they are only this to you and no one else.

Meaningless supposition.

No, your misapplication of the model is the only thing that makes them seem "relevant" to you.

Which model, which case? Have you ever seen a model of the connection at C79 run with the correct elements accounted for? (you haven't)

They matter none to the purpose of the NIST report.

And you know this how?
Stop guessing and start basing your assertions on analysis instead of misplaced faith in an incompetent federal agency.

 

[gerrycan]

Not necessary for the concepts he's trying to get you to grasp. When you said you would tell him if it was over your head, you didn't answer correctly.

Don't you think that the West connection between the girder spanning C76 and C79 at C79 is relevant? I do.
I seriously do not think you have ever even looked at it.
It is entirely necessary to have an awareness of the elements about which the point is being made and their connections. I am not about to enter into some stepping stone game with anyone. Talk about specifics, not wires and trees.

 

[carlitos]

There are those in your administration who realise that there are pertinent questions that require an answer from NIST about their WTC7 report.

Names, please.

Who?

There is a lot more correspondence than one letter to the OIG going on here. There is a lot of concern over the IG allowing federal agencies to police themselves historically and many members have expressed this disquiet.

I missed the names in the above answer. There is a lot of concern from whom, exactly? "Many members" of what organization have expressed this disquiet?

 

[DGM]

There is a lot more correspondence than one letter to the OIG going on here. There is a lot of concern over the IG allowing federal agencies to police themselves historically and many members have expressed this disquiet

But, you can't name one person of any importance. I'm really not surprised.

Don't you think that the West connection between the girder spanning C76 and C79 at C79 is relevant? I do.
I seriously do not think you have ever even looked at it.
It is entirely necessary to have an awareness of the elements about which the point is being made and their connections. I am not about to enter into some stepping stone game with anyone. Talk about specifics, not wires and trees.

It's a trig question that is not specific to anything you're saying here. He told you that.

Is the question he asked over your head?

Clue: Is it possible to tension a wire strung between two *very* sturdy trees such that the wire becomes horizontal?

 

[gerrycan]

I missed the names in the above answer. There is a lot of concern from whom, exactly? "Many members" of what organization have expressed this disquiet?

If you haven't noticed that committee members within the OIG are unhappy with Todd Zinser and the way he allows some agencies to police themselves you're just not paying attention.
Try writing to these members yourself if you need to know how they feel about that issue and also WTC7. Others have.

 

[DGM]

If you haven't noticed that committee members within the OIG are unhappy with Todd Zinser and the way he allows some agencies to police themselves you're just not paying attention.
Try writing to these members yourself if you need to know how they feel about that issue and also WTC7. Others have.

What's this have to do with NIST and what you claimed?

Who has a problem with NIST and the report?

 

[gerrycan]

But, you can't name one person of any importance. I'm really not surprised.

Can't and won't are two different things. Do you seriously believe that no-one within your administration takes the issue of WTC7 seriously, and this specific issue seriously?

It's a trig question that is not specific to anything you're saying here. He told you that.

Le's stay on topic then. Maybe describe exactly how the question relates to this topic, and if it doesn't, why ask?

Is the question he asked over your head?

The one about the trees and the wire? No.
I would just rather talk about the elements and connections as they are in the structural drawings. That is after all what this thread is about.

 

[DGM]

Can't and won't are two different things. Do you seriously believe that no-one within your administration takes the issue of WTC7 seriously, and this specific issue seriously?

Dodge noted. You said there were members. Who?

I would just rather talk about the elements and connections as they are in the structural drawings. That is after all what this thread is about.

Naturally. That way no one ever get's you close to making you understand where you go wrong.

I'll wait for those names you claim to have.

 

[Justin39640]

Can't and won't are two different things. Do you seriously believe that no-one within your administration takes the issue of WTC7 seriously, and this specific issue seriously?


Le's stay on topic then. Maybe describe exactly how the question relates to this topic, and if it doesn't, why ask?


The one about the trees and the wire? No.
I would just rather talk about the elements and connections as they are in the structural drawings. That is after all what this thread is about.

This thread is about the failure of a column who's connections were not pristine as they were in the drawings.

Other than that, you seem not to grasp the reasoning behind the NIST reports. They're not to defend the government's position on what happened on 9/11. They're to identify and mitigate weaknesses in modern buildings to keep the occupants of those buildings safe long enough to evacuate them in case of a catastrophe. This is the reason truthers fail and real engineers and architects (whom the reports were aimed at) don't take your ideas seriously.

 

[LSSBB]

(my bolding)
How exactly did you judge the relevance of the omissions and errors that are highlighted in the complaint. Have you quantified just what difference they make to NISTs conclusions, or do they just "seem" like they might not matter?

They issued a correction because of it. Therefore barely relevant. They have not retracted the study, and nothing has been shown requiring that they have to. Do a simulation, since it is a system in a highly unknown internal state, and show how it makes a difference.

 

[Animal]

This thread is about the failure of a column who's connections were not pristine as they were in the drawings.

Other than that, you seem not to grasp the reasoning behind the NIST reports. They're not to defend the government's position on what happened on 9/11. They're to identify and mitigate weaknesses in modern buildings to keep the occupants of those buildings safe long enough to evacuate them in case of a catastrophe. This is the reason truthers fail and real engineers and architects (whom the reports were aimed at) don't take your ideas seriously.

Kind of amusing how he derailed another thread concerning the Pepper letter with all his off topic structural detail posts.....now he comes to the thread where it is appropriate and he wants to talk about letters.

Seems like he is intent on getting himself suspended/banned.

(Like we haven't seen that before from troofers.)

The tag team will never understand the significance of the points from NCSTAR that I posted previously......they think they have found the holy grail in the column seat......they could not be further from the reality.

 

[gerrycan]

This thread is about the failure of a column who's connections were not pristine as they were in the drawings.

Sure. These elements had been subjected to heat for example. This means that the girder at column 79 expands in toward the face of the column and is inside of the sideplates. That is something else that is not accounted for in the analysis from NIST. I think you are again confusing NISTs hypothesis with reality. You should be clear about which one of these you are referring to.

Other than that, you seem not to grasp the reasoning behind the NIST reports.They're not to defend the government's position on what happened on 9/11.

NIST are a federal agency are they not? Who funds them?

They're to identify and mitigate weaknesses in modern buildings to keep the occupants of those buildings safe long enough to evacuate them in case of a catastrophe.

And the main thing that they identified was the use of long span floor beams. This has been proved to be erroneous.

This is the reason truthers fail and real engineers and architects (whom the reports were aimed at) don't take your ideas seriously.

You mean like the SEs on here who do not even have an awareness of what a tube construction is, or the alleged architects on here who hadn't heard of, and failed to realise what a side plate was?

 

[gerrycan]

Kind of amusing how he derailed another thread concerning the Pepper letter with all his off topic structural detail posts.....now he comes to the thread where it is appropriate and he wants to talk about letters.

You need to read a bit closer.

Seems like he is intent on getting himself suspended/banned.

Yeah, and you'd love that.

(Like we haven't seen that before from troofers.)

The tag team will never understand the significance of the points from NCSTAR that I posted previously......they think they have found the holy grail in the column seat......they could not be further from the reality.

This is not even just about the column seat. You're clearly not even comprehending the argument that is being made. Of all the posts on here in the last hour or so, yours is the most off topic. By your own logic you should therefor be banned for derailing the thread.

Go and read and try to understand the argument behind the issue and maybe then you will manage to contribute to the discussion in a semi intelligent way.

You still have not disclosed what your name for a side plate is. Funny.

 

[DGM]

Kind of amusing how he derailed another thread concerning the Pepper letter with all his off topic structural detail posts.....now he comes to the thread where it is appropriate and he wants to talk about letters.

Seems like he is intent on getting himself suspended/banned.

I wouldn't go that far.

He want's to discuss it but, only if you keep to the scope he wishes to use. It's why most people just give up on him after a while.

 

[gerrycan]

They issued a correction because of it. Therefore barely relevant.

They issued an errata statement about the seat plate issue in which they alluded to a degree of thermal expansion that is impossible from a 53ft beam. Their statement was nonsensical and did not address the stiffener plates, which they omitted to account for in their analysis.

They have not retracted the study, and nothing has been shown requiring that they have to.

So explain to me what the maximum expansion due to heat that can be experienced by a beam such as k3004 is.

Do a simulation, since it is a system in a highly unknown internal state, and show how it makes a difference.

Hedging your bets there with the "unknown state" bit. The state that the elements were in is known in terms of NISTs analysis, but perhaps not in reality. That these two things do not equate should hardly come as a surprise.

 

[Animal]

You need to read a bit closer.


Yeah, and you'd love that.

What and loose the entertainment?

This is not even just about the column seat. You're clearly not even comprehending the argument that is being made. Of all the posts on here in the last hour or so, yours is the most off topic. By your own logic you should therefor be banned for derailing the thread.

You might get further if you explain your own thoughts and stop trying to tell others what they are thinking / saying.

Go and read and try to understand the argument behind the issue and maybe then you will manage to contribute to the discussion in a semi intelligent way.

See above

You still have not disclosed what your name for a side plate is. Funny.

What is funny is how you wish to cling to your spin on it versus reality.
As was previously stated by JayUtah and with me agreeing.....it was a misinterpretation of what your gish gallop. You wish to continue with your bluster as a means of self importance.....everyone else just laughs at it.