"Torture Lite" --- Your Questions Answered

[geni]

Could you detail the abuses that you think are both illegal and sanctioned? Do you have evidence that illegal practices were conducted and sanctioned?

Physicians for Human Rights claim they have evidence:

http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/news_2005-06-23.html

 

[RandFan]

Physicians for Human Rights claim they have evidence:

http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/news_2005-06-23.html

I read a similar article that detailed the abuse of what would otherwise constitute a violation of doctor patient privilege to get psychiatrists to give information from detainees to determine the best method for extracting information. In other words if the psychiatrist noted that a particular detainee had a fear of the dark the military would exploit that fear. I don't remember where I read the article or exactly the how the psychiatrists acquired the information. I assumed it was from interviews. It would seem that a licensed doctor would have to abide by a code of ethics and work to help a patient and "do no harm". I found the account troubling. I apologize that I don't have the reference. If I find it I will post it.

In any event I don't see the proof in this article. I've read through it a number of times but I could still have missed it. Please detail it if I'm wrong. It's difficult to prove that something isn't there.

RandFan

 

[geni]

In any event I don't see the proof in this article. I've read through it a number of times but I could still have missed it. Please detail it if I'm wrong. It's difficult to prove that something isn't there.

the key claim is

A wide range of sources, including military and other government documents, have exposed a systematic pattern of torture and ill-treatment by US interrogators, including physical torture, such as beatings and shackling in stress positions, and psychological torture, such as mock executions, sleep and sensory deprivation , prolonged isolation, forced nudity, cultural and sexual humiliation, use of dogs to instill terror, threats of violence or death against detainees or their loved ones, and more. The US Army has identified the deaths of at least 28 detainees as confirmed or suspected homicides.

 

[RandFan]

the key claim is

Yes, I KNOW what the claim is. I got that. I really do. I have detaled it myself numerous times in this thread. I'm asking for "proof" or something, is there anything other than claims?

We know that sleep paterns are altered but the military demands that all detainees get a minimum of 8 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. Not even the guards all get 8 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. Now, in case you havent really been paying attention, I agree that this requirement could be abused by waking the detainee ever couple of hours.

The question is, what exactly is happening that you disagree with, (details) and what proof do you have that these things are happening. Look, I admit that there could very well be such evidence. The problem is that I have been asking this question for months and to date no one has detailed it to me. Now, that is proof of nothing except the absence of proof.

 

[geni]

Yes, I KNOW what the claim is. I got that. I really do. I have detaled it myself numerous times in this thread. I'm asking for "proof" or something, is there anything other than claims?

You got your proof that it had been done back on page one. now you want proof that it is policy. Assumning that you govement has even a vestage of competance this will be pretty much imposible. Milosoviches trial showed that quite clearly.

 

[RandFan]

You got your proof that it had been done back on page one. now you want proof that it is policy. Assumning that you govement has even a vestage of competance this will be pretty much imposible. Milosoviches trial showed that quite clearly.

I know and have admitted that there have been serious infractions. It has been bandied about that some of these methods have even led to murder. I don't know that as fact but it is said so much that it seems to be.

In any event, so what am I suppose to conclude? Improper behavior was disclosed and the perpetrators are been punished. I suspect that they are not alone. Do I assume this and act as though they are or....what exactly?

This is a serious, non-rhetorical question.

BTW, I'm completely lost as to Milosevic's trial. Huh?

 

[geni]

I know and have admitted that there have been serious infractions. It has been bandied about that some of these methods have even led to murder. I don't know that as fact but it is said so much that it seems to be.

Bodies have turned up cause of death is someone difficult to establish

In any event, so what am I suppose to conclude? Improper behavior was disclosed and the perpetrators are been punished. I suspect that they are not alone. Do I assume this and act as though they are or....what exactly?

This is a serious, non-rhetorical question.

Suppose to conclude? That's up to you. It really boils down to how much you trust your goverment.

BTW, I'm completely lost as to Milosevic's trial. Huh?

slobodan milosevic is almost certianly did know what was going on. Proving this has turned out to be somewhat more difficult than anyone expected

 

[RandFan]

Bodies have turned up cause of death is someone difficult to establish

Ok, and?

Suppose to conclude? That's up to you. It really boils down to how much you trust your goverment.

I don't, I expect that any evidence will lead to indictments and I expect that the people will vote their conscience. I trust my nations system of government far more than I trust ANY government. The system is not perfect though and that is why I hope that the media is doing its job. We will see.

slobodan milosevic is almost certianly did know what was going on. Proving this has turned out to be somewhat more difficult than anyone expected

Could you be any more obscure? Not a clue as to what you are getting at or the relevance of Milosevic?

 

[Mycroft]

Could you be any more obscure? Not a clue as to what you are getting at or the relevance of Milosevic?

Bushchimphitler is just like Milosevic, he ordered and orchastrated every evil imaginable, even if you can't prove any of it.

 

[RandFan]

Bushchimphitler is just like Milosevic, he ordered and orchastrated every evil imaginable, even if you can't prove any of it.

Thanks Mycroft.

 

[demon]

Interrogators Cite Doctors' Aid at Guantánamo Prison Camp
By NEIL A. LEWIS
WASHINGTON, June 23

"Military doctors at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have aided interrogators in conducting and refining coercive interrogations of detainees, including providing advice on how to increase stress levels and exploit fears, according to new, detailed accounts given by former interrogators."

.....

"Bryan Whitman, a senior Pentagon spokesman, .... suggested that the doctors advising interrogators were not covered by ethics strictures because they were not treating patients but rather were acting as behavioral scientists."

.....

Meanwhile .... "A four-member team of United Nations human rights experts accused the United States on Thursday of stalling on requests over the past three years to visit detainees at Guantánamo and said it would begin its own investigation without American assistance."

http://nytimes.com/2005/06/24/polit...=1119585600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

I wonder what Rumsfeld is trying to hide?

 

[geni]

Ok, and?

dunno I'll find out in 40 to 50 years when we may have som,e idea of what is going on.

I don't, I expect that any evidence will lead to indictments and I expect that the people will vote their conscience. I trust my nations system of government far more than I trust ANY government. The system is not perfect though and that is why I hope that the media is doing its job. We will see.

So you have some level of trust in politicans and you expect the media to find out if they do anything bad. Oh dear

Could you be any more obscure? Not a clue as to what you are getting at or the relevance of Milosevic? [/B]

You haven't been following his trial then? You should it may come in hand if you ever become an eveil genious bent on takeing over the world.

 

[RandFan]

dunno I'll find out in 40 to 50 years when we may have som,e idea of what is going on.

You don't know?

So you have some level of trust in politicans and you expect the media to find out if they do anything bad. Oh dear

Not at all what I said.

You said
It really boils down to how much you trust your goverment.

I said
I don't

What is it that you don't understand about "I don't". How does that become "some level"?

"Oh dear"? Rhetorical. Do you have an argument?

You haven't been following his trial then? You should it may come in hand if you ever become an eveil genious bent on takeing over the world.

And this answers the question because? Is there any reason I or anyone should take you seriously? You are tap dancing. I suppose you think you are being wity. You're not.

 

[RandFan]

I wonder what Rumsfeld is trying to hide?

Non sequitur. Doesn't follow from anything you have posted.

 

[geni]

You don't know?

I know bodies exist because I have seen the photos. No independant examination has been done though so saying what killed them isn't posible

Not at all what I said.

What is it that you don't understand about "I don't". How does that become "some level"?

"Oh dear"? Rhetorical. Do you have an argument?

You have way to much confidence in the ability of the media. Roswell was years ago. It probably was a project mongul ballon but I can't prove that. Consider someone in the uper enclerlons of govement gives a few off the record "suggestions" to whoever runs the interigation that a few techniques should be "looked into". Nothing writen down nothing tracerble. by the standards you are using it would never have happened.

And this answers the question because? Is there any reason I or anyone should take you seriously? You are tap dancing. I suppose you think you are being wity. You're not.

Ok then. Slobodan Milosevic is the former presendent of serbia and Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. He is currently standing trail at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. Your country paid a fair bit to get him there mildy ironic but no matter. He is chagred with criems against humanity the usual stuff. there is no question that forces under his comand commited genocide and a number of other war crimes. The problem is proveing that the guy was in any way involved.Milosevic isn't as alone as he would like to portray, he has a team in serbia supporting him but it has no where near the rescources that the Bush adminsitration has availible. Milosevic is up against everything the west can throw at him he's out of power and yet we still have a hard time proving any involvement. Now if we assume that the US govement uper sections are are competant as Milosevic what chance do you think we have of finding any evidence of orders coming from the top?

 

[RandFan]

I know bodies exist because I have seen the photos. No independant examination has been done though so saying what killed them isn't posible.

And so what conclusions should we draw?

You have way to much confidence in the ability of the media. Roswell was years ago. It probably was a project mongul ballon but I can't prove that. Consider someone in the uper enclerlons of govement gives a few off the record "suggestions" to whoever runs the interigation that a few techniques should be "looked into". Nothing writen down nothing tracerble. by the standards you are using it would never have happened.

No, I don't put too much stock in the media and I don't put too much stock in Americans. I'm a skeptic. I'm not a cynic, at least I don't try to be. My life is pretty good and aside from all of our warts we do pretty well. The sky is not falling and the American system of government works. It is not perfect and sadly some very bad things happen from time to time. The best I can do is become informed and civically active.

Ok then. Slobodan Milosevic is the former presendent of serbia and Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. He is currently standing trail at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. Your country paid a fair bit to get him there mildy ironic but no matter. He is chagred with criems against humanity the usual stuff. there is no question that forces under his comand commited genocide and a number of other war crimes. The problem is proveing that the guy was in any way involved.Milosevic isn't as alone as he would like to portray, he has a team in serbia supporting him but it has no where near the rescources that the Bush adminsitration has availible. Milosevic is up against everything the west can throw at him he's out of power and yet we still have a hard time proving any involvement. Now if we assume that the US govement uper sections are are competant as Milosevic what chance do you think we have of finding any evidence of orders coming from the top?

So you are making an argument from ignorance?

 

[demon]

RF:
"Non sequitur. Doesn't follow from anything you have posted."

Yeah right, I forgot that Rumseld doesn`t have anything to do with Gitmo. I thought it was a known known that he did but apparently it`s a known known that he doesn`t. I wonder which unknown known should be held responsible for the known and unknown knowns that go on there then?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Given that organised torture has gone on a nod-and-a-wink basis even under Stalin, I think it's equivalent to sticking your head in the sand to assume that if there is no smoking gun memo saying "Put electrodes on their genitals" that everything must be all right.

We know worse has occurred as "isolated incidents", and we're never likely to find a smoking gun authorising torture.

Psychological experiments on ordinary undergrads have shown that people tend to get abusive very quickly when given prison-like power over others, even when they aren't given the job of extracting confessions or information. It's just a nasty fact of human nature. Given that, and given that torture lite is clearly on the menu, what we really need is a good reason to believe that people won't go further.

Just saying "We're the USA, we're the greatest, our soldiers are the greatest, our shady private security contractors are the greatest, our CIA are the greatest, they would never do that" is a faith-based position. As far as I know, it's human nature that they will do that, unless someone is constantly vigilant to make sure they don't.

 

[Mephisto]

. . . I think it's equivalent to sticking your head in the sand to assume that if there is no smoking gun memo saying "Put electrodes on their genitals" that everything must be all right.

We know worse has occurred as "isolated incidents", and we're never likely to find a smoking gun authorising torture.

Psychological experiments on ordinary undergrads have shown that people tend to get abusive very quickly when given prison-like power over others, even when they aren't given the job of extracting confessions or information. It's just a nasty fact of human nature. Given that, and given that torture lite is clearly on the menu, what we really need is a good reason to believe that people won't go further.

Just saying "We're the USA, we're the greatest, our soldiers are the greatest, our shady private security contractors are the greatest, our CIA are the greatest, they would never do that" is a faith-based position. As far as I know, it's human nature that they will do that, unless someone is constantly vigilant to make sure they don't.

Excellent point, Kevin, the use of misdirection and vague language have given those who would rather not believe these thing happen an excuse to say they don't.

I'm also aware of similar experiments involving electric shock, and it didn't take long for most students to willingly give a (supposedly) increasing voltage shock as punishment.

As you pointed out in another string long ago, I can't believe "civilized" people are discussing what degree of torture is acceptable.

 

[RandFan]

RF:
"Non sequitur. Doesn't follow from anything you have posted."

Yeah right, I forgot that Rumseld doesn`t have anything to do with Gitmo. I thought it was a known known that he did but apparently it`s a known known that he doesn`t. I wonder which unknown known should be held responsible for the known and unknown knowns that go on there then?

Do you have an argument?