Tortoise showing empathy, or something else?

[Kaylee]

This short video (2:15) shows one tortoise helping another one that's flipped on its back, get back on its feet.

So, is this empathy, baby-making time, or just a fluke?

I'm guessing it's one of the first two choices. Anyone know if tortoises really have empathy?

 

[Lowpro]

This short video (2:15) shows one tortoise helping another one that's flipped on its back, get back on its feet.

So, is this empathy, baby-making time, or just a fluke?

I'm guessing it's one of the first two choices. Anyone know if tortoises really have empathy?

It would be an additional display of irony if the turtle pushed its fallen brethren into oncoming traffic. That too should be tested.

 

[Kaylee]

It would be an additional display of irony if the turtle pushed its fallen brethren into oncoming traffic. That too should be tested.

Hey! This is a serious scientific question! Please respond in kind.

 

[madurobob]

Anyone know if tortoises really have empathy?

I'm not sure thats knowable.

And, one instance isn't enough to come to much of a scientific conclusion. You'd need to replicate it in a more controlled environment.

 

[Kaylee]

I'm not sure thats knowable.

And, one instance isn't enough to come to much of a scientific conclusion. You'd need to replicate it in a more controlled environment.

That is true.

However, there are no free-roaming tortoises in New York City.

We need volunteers who do live near tortoises.

Quarky? Would you volunteer?

 

[I Ratant]

Don't, that is DON'T mess with a snapping turtle.
They CAN jump and turn and bite... and hold on to what they bit really really well!

 

[Halfcentaur]

I've kept turtles and box turtles all my life, and I'd say this is a lucky case of mating behavior. I think we're seeing a male doing what males do, trying to get behind the female and mount. It just turned out to look like this, but you then see him following her from directly behind, which is mating behavior.

I've been surprised by chelonian intelligence and behavior, but I don't think they're actually cooperating here in that the other is rescuing the tortoise on it's back.

 

[Amapola]

Will I do? I've owned them as pets, and been around them.

Unless you are a tortoise behaviorist, it's tough to understand exactly why a tortoise might do something. From the film though, I would say it's more on the aggression side: a little butting of the shells to show who's toughest. Tortoises will fight over females, or food, by butting shells together in an attempt to shove aside the other tortoise. There are times when this ends up flipping the rival tortoise upside down, where, unfortunately, it normally remains until it is quite dead. I think it would be a mistake to say they do this "on purpose", it just works out that way sometimes. By the same token, I doubt this one is tipping the other tortoise back right side up "on purpose" - it just happened to work out that way.

Tortoises are totally charming creatures, but they have their *own* attributes and that's what makes them so appealing. They are not like humans, they don't think like us, they don't behave the way we do. This does not mean tortoises are lesser or something, only different.

 

[Kaylee]

Don't, that is DON'T mess with a snapping turtle.
They CAN jump and turn and bite... and hold on to what they bit really really well!

Msg received -- no experiments with snapping turtles!

 

[Kaylee]

Will I do? I've owned them as pets, and been around them.

Absolutely!

Unless you are a tortoise behaviorist, it's tough to understand exactly why a tortoise might do something. From the film though, I would say it's more on the aggression side: a little butting of the shells to show who's toughest. Tortoises will fight over females, or food, by butting shells together in an attempt to shove aside the other tortoise. There are times when this ends up flipping the rival tortoise upside down, where, unfortunately, it normally remains until it is quite dead. I think it would be a mistake to say they do this "on purpose", it just works out that way sometimes. By the same token, I doubt this one is tipping the other tortoise back right side up "on purpose" - it just happened to work out that way.

Tortoises are totally charming creatures, but they have their *own* attributes and that's what makes them so appealing. They are not like humans, they don't think like us, they don't behave the way we do. This does not mean tortoises are lesser or something, only different.

I've kept turtles and box turtles all my life, and I'd say this is a lucky case of mating behavior. I think we're seeing a male doing what males do, trying to get behind the female and mount. It just turned out to look like this, but you then see him following her from directly behind, which is mating behavior.

I've been surprised by chelonian intelligence and behavior, but I don't think they're actually cooperating here in that the other is rescuing the tortoise on it's back.

Amapola & Halfcentaur -- so I think what you're saying is that tortoises have a lot going for them and are interesting critters -- but empathy is not one of their traits and it's unlikely that we are witnessing a tortoise rescue just for the sake of rescue.

But is it possible that a male tortoise would be motivated to help move a female tortoise into mating position though?

The video does make it look like that's the case.

And as for why the tortoise ended up flipped upside down in the first place -- I would guess whoever filmed the youtube video did that.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Will I do? I've owned them as pets, and been around them.

Unless you are a tortoise behaviorist, it's tough to understand exactly why a tortoise might do something. From the film though, I would say it's more on the aggression side: a little butting of the shells to show who's toughest. Tortoises will fight over females, or food, by butting shells together in an attempt to shove aside the other tortoise. There are times when this ends up flipping the rival tortoise upside down, where, unfortunately, it normally remains until it is quite dead. I think it would be a mistake to say they do this "on purpose", it just works out that way sometimes. By the same token, I doubt this one is tipping the other tortoise back right side up "on purpose" - it just happened to work out that way.

Tortoises are totally charming creatures, but they have their *own* attributes and that's what makes them so appealing. They are not like humans, they don't think like us, they don't behave the way we do. This does not mean tortoises are lesser or something, only different.

This too, I would guess is also a very likely scenario. The male may have flipped the other one over originally and is just simply not happy with his victory.

 

[quarky]

That is true.

However, there are no free-roaming tortoises in New York City.

We need volunteers who do live near tortoises.

Quarky? Would you volunteer?

You bet!

Can I be serious for a moment? OK:

I've been a keen observer of animal behavior for half a century. I've made the mistake of anthropocentric bias a few times, but more often than not, i've been validated in time by a background assumption that most animals have a lot more going on than we assume. This is a two edged bias:

Its wrong to think of other animals as humans in a different package.
Its also wrong to assume, due to our vast superiority and the Bible and stuff, that they are all dolts and we must dominate and exploit them all because of it.

That said, the video was heart-warming and cute. But I've never seen a turtle stuck on its back in terrain like that. They can easily flip themselves over, unless they happen to be on a smooth, flat surface, like a road or a table.

I'd have to add to that; these turtles are not the box turtles of which I m most familiar. They look a bit like the gopher tortoises of Florida, yet smaller.
Anyway, they have a more extreme hump on their shell. Still, its hard for me to believe that it couldn't have righted itself quickly on that turf.

Part 2:

I've observed lots of reptilian mating. Snakes; gators; snapping turtles and more. (I even have a short film of snapping turtles mating in the pond next to my house; perhaps I'll try to link it here.)
Its amazing what long and elaborate rituals they go through. Its not a 'wam-bam-thank you mam sort of thing. The snapping turtles, for instance, spent several hours in ecstatic foreplay; flipping each other about; flailing out spread-eagle; pornographic stuff.

My semi-educated guess is that the video caught some typical pre-mating behavior.

Btw, snapping turtles, though quite capable of moving fast; biting hard; inflicting wounds...are actually quite polite. I share space with them. Big ones. And I've nothing to fear, because I don't poke at them with sticks or try to kill them. They've laid eggs in my garden. No worries. Same with snakes. They behave badly under threat. I'm no threat; hence, peaceful critters, all.

Hope this helps.

Now, back to unseriousness for me.

 

[blobru]

--
"Lean on Me"? -- not a bad choice, I guess; but if I were the turtles, I think I would have gone with one of their better-known songs: "Happy Together", or "Elenore" --

Elenore, it's too bad you
fell over, on top of your
shell, o for the love of peat, etc...

-- and then wrap it up with the classic anti-war anthem, "Eve of Destruction".

 

[quarky]

blobru,

You know I saw the Turtles in '67.
They were surprisingly great. Flo and Eddie had already become bizarre.
Funny that they get almost no air-play, even on the oldies stations.


(oops. This is the science forum, nevermind.)

 

[Halfcentaur]

I love snapping turtles, common and alligator snapper. I used to catch them by the dozen as a kid. Here in central Oklahoma we only have common snappers, and it always was frustrating to hear every kid who found one ignorant of the distinction, always calling them alligator snappers, as I was always on the search for authentic macroclemys specimens. I've still never caught one in the wild, just chelydra serpentina.

I'd love to see this courtship video.

 

[Kaylee]

You bet!

Can I be serious for a moment? OK

:<snip>

Thanks for being serious for a moment Quarky, I enjoyed reading your post and feel a lot more knowledgable right now.

Like Halfcentear, I'd like to see the courtship video.

 

[Kaylee]

--
"Lean on Me"? -- not a bad choice, I guess; but if I were the turtles, I think I would have gone with one of their better-known songs: "Happy Together", or "Elenore" --

Elenore, it's too bad you
fell over, on top of your
shell, o for the love of peat, etc...

-- and then wrap it up with the classic anti-war anthem, "Eve of Destruction".

That would have been really clever.

Here's a depressing thought though, the video may have been shot by someone who never heard of The Turtles.

 

[blobru]

blobru,

You know I saw the Turtles in '67.
They were surprisingly great. Flo and Eddie had already become bizarre.
Funny that they get almost no air-play, even on the oldies stations.


(oops. This is the science forum, nevermind.)

Shh... Dude, The Turtles are awesome ("Flo" and "Eddie"'s camping for the camera is infectious, and 'natural' in an unfazed gen-youtube way; where sixties acts, even the cool ones, usually come across a bit 'stiff' by today's media-savvy standards, or too stoned to care; I don't doubt they put on a good show; weird their tunes don't get more play; maybe innocent flower-power lovesongs clash with sponsors' profiles; or, maybe you and I and Kaylee are the last three people on earth who've heard of The Turtles)!

Ahem... as for the 4-legged variety, looks like mating ritual's a good guess. Though if that's what it is, still pretty cool that their mating ritual involves, if not empathy, what strikes me as a sort of playful[?] "intimacy": outwardly at least, not unlike how a lot of species, our own included, pair-bond (teasing, horseplay, &c.).

 

[Aepervius]

This short video (2:15) shows one tortoise helping another one that's flipped on its back, get back on its feet.

So, is this empathy, baby-making time, or just a fluke?

I'm guessing it's one of the first two choices. Anyone know if tortoises really have empathy?

Well at least we now know that the tortoise isn't a replicant (from here on it is turtle all the way down).

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mmmm, it looks rather deliberate, but mating behavior could explain it, or aggression. If turtle fights aim at flipping the other one, this fellow might have been thinking something like:

Hey, that big guy seems to be in a weak spot, I'll flip him!

- Unnh! Yeay, that'll teach him, heheh!

Wait! WTF? Now he walks?



Incidentally, land turtles are generally able to eventually right themselves, unless stuck in a hole, or something.. If being flipped was a death sentence, this slow-breeding creature would not have been around for so long.

Hans