tonight's town hall debate

[peptoabysmal]

I've just been checking out various (unscientific, mind you) polls on the "internets" (Bush's word) on who won tonight's debate:

CNN
Bush 16%
John Kerry 83%

MSNBC
Pres. Bush 25%
Sen. Kerry 75%

CBS
President Bush 12%
John Kerry 88%

Fox
President Bush 30%
Senator Kerry 70%

I thought Bush started out horribly, but came on stronger in the second half. Still, it appears he has anger issues. Why was he yelling so much?

Personally, I gave Kerry a slight edge in this one, but the online polls (even Fox's) are indicating a solid win for Kerry.

Let the spin begin...

Oh, wait. I see Pepto has already started.

*Ahem* you can tell bush won because last time immediately the news were rolling out stories "Kerry wins first debate". The headlines so far are stuff like "Bush and Kerry clash sharply on Iraq and Taxes", which is close as the left-leaning media ever gets to saying a Republican won a debate.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Best line of the debate was the prophetic one. Bush stopped talking (I listened on the radio, so I am guessing on the antecedent) and asked Gibson if he had time. Gibson said he did, and Bush replied: He was looking at me like my clock was up.

"He was looking at me like my clock was up"! That's great! Because your clock IS up Mr. Bush! That's why he was looking at you like that!

Bush does better in phone polls because his reactionary base has managed to learn how to use a telephone over the last hundred years or so - while those newfangled 'internets' are a little tricky for his Republican supporters to master.

TV? 55 years or so - not quite enough time. Bush still calls them 'your television screens'. It was quite a surprise that there weren't actually tiny little people inside.

 

[Tricky]

I've just been checking out various (unscientific, mind you) polls on the "internets" (Bush's word) on who won tonight's debate:

CNN
Bush 16%
John Kerry 83%

MSNBC
Pres. Bush 25%
Sen. Kerry 75%

CBS
President Bush 12%
John Kerry 88%

Fox
President Bush 30%
Senator Kerry 70%

I thought Bush started out horribly, but came on stronger in the second half. Still, it appears he has anger issues. Why was he yelling so much?

Personally, I gave Kerry a slight edge in this one, but the online polls (even Fox's) are indicating a solid win for Kerry.

Let the spin begin...

Oh, wait. I see Pepto has already started.

I see that Fox has now evened out into pretty much a dead heat, but even that says a lot. And yes, the polls are very unscientific, but when everybody agrees, then that has to be significant.

Personally, I thought Bush got smoked worse than a spliff at a Rastasfarian convention, but I admit to prejudice. Not that Kerry was a whiz. I kept wanting to tell him "Answer the damn question, John!". Still, by comparison, he was clearly the more articulate and on-message of the two. Bush came off like a kid throwing a tantrum, trying to outshout the moderator, for gosh sakes.

But the real problem Bush had is that his record is simply indefensible. He got justifiably hammered on the war, the economy and especially (in my mind) the environment. He is a man that has so much to be humble about.

 

[Tricky]

*Ahem* you can tell bush won because last time immediately the news were rolling out stories "Kerry wins first debate". The headlines so far are stuff like "Bush and Kerry clash sharply on Iraq and Taxes", which is close as the left-leaning media ever gets to saying a Republican won a debate.

Your mileage may vary.

As I recall, the headlines were pretty much the same immediately after the first debate. It wasn't until the "scientific" polls started coming in the next day that the stories changed. I suspect that will be the same situation this time. I expect a similar set of numbers on the results of the debate (Kerry winning handily) but a much smaller shift in the polls on who will win. After all, there aren't that many undecideds out there.

Changing gears, I thought a telling moment came near the end when a cute, shy-looking woman asked Kerry what he would say to a person who believed abortion was murder. I thought Kerry fielded the question perfectly, but the girl who asked the question looked like she has been put up to it by her church group and didn't really want to have to do it.

The stem cell issue is another one in which Bush is clearly out of his league. He shamelessly panders to the religious right while babbling about "morality", yet not seeming to care about what the vast majority of very moral health care professionals are saying.

 

[peptoabysmal]

I see that Fox has now evened out into pretty much a dead heat, but even that says a lot. And yes, the polls are very unscientific, but when everybody agrees, then that has to be significant.

Personally, I thought Bush got smoked worse than a spliff at a Rastasfarian convention, but I admit to prejudice. Not that Kerry was a whiz. I kept wanting to tell him "Answer the damn question, John!". Still, by comparison, he was clearly the more articulate and on-message of the two. Bush came off like a kid throwing a tantrum, trying to outshout the moderator, for gosh sakes.

But the real problem Bush had is that his record is simply indefensible. He got justifiably hammered on the war, the economy and especially (in my mind) the environment. He is a man that has so much to be humble about.

I was only disappointed by Bush's answer to the "Name 3 things you regret doing" question. He seemed evasive. He was right, it was someone trying to get him to admit Iraq was a mistake, but still... evasive. I don't think it was a really fair question though, it would be fairer to ask "Are there any things you regretted doing?".

Kerry did answer the question... that was asked two questions ago.

Kerrys entire foreign policy was based on UN support. Now that the latest CIA report has confirmed that the UN is rotten to the core and Jaques and Vladimir were among those on the "take" from Saddam, Kerry has no foreign policy... period.

I disagree about the war issue, Bush hammered Kerry into a little whimpering pulp on the war and foreign policy.

Domestic issues, ah kind of a draw except for Kerry saying he would not raise taxes and in the next few breaths saying he would repeal the current tax cuts. Bush is no conservative when it comes to spending and he squirmed a lot on the pork spending question.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Best line of the debate was the prophetic one. Bush stopped talking (I listened on the radio, so I am guessing on the antecedent) and asked Gibson if he had time. Gibson said he did, and Bush replied: He was looking at me like my clock was up.

"He was looking at me like my clock was up"! That's great! Because your clock IS up Mr. Bush! That's why he was looking at you like that!

IMHO Kerry was also effectively "preaching" to Bush the whole time. It seemed that when Kerry was making an effective point he was staring intently at Bush and seemed to say "pay attention, you might learn something".

In my objective opinion, Bush did well, or least better than the last debate. He didn't come across as "whiney" and preachy as last time. Both candidates stuck to their messages without being the sloganeers that they were in the 1st debate.

IMHO Kerry seemed more "presidential" of the two. I think he handled the abortion question quite nicely. To paraphrase a favourite politician of mine, when asked the same abortion question answered "I am prime minister of all Canadians, I can't let my religeon dictate my policy - Jean Chretian (catholic).

I give Kerry the win (65/35) because I believe he was most effective in swaying the "undecided's". That is the most important aspect.

Charlie (2 strikes for Bush) Monoxide

 

[Tricky]

I was only disappointed by Bush's answer to the "Name 3 things you regret doing" question. He seemed evasive. He was right, it was someone trying to get him to admit Iraq was a mistake, but still... evasive. I don't think it was a really fair question though, it would be fairer to ask "Are there any things you regretted doing?".

Bush was asked that question a few months back. I can't remember the questioner, but it was pretty much something like, "What would you do differently". George put on that "searching my memory" look, and confessed that he couldn't think of a single thing he would do differently. He really should have been more prepared for that question by now.

Kerry did answer the question... that was asked two questions ago.

Well, they were both guilty of that to some extent. The difference being that Bush couldn't wait his turn and had to shout over the moderator when Kerry pushed his buttons. But I have never seen any presidential debate when I felt that either candidate was answering the question. Interestingly, this one came closer than most, but I was still frustrated. I really thought Kerry could have gone for the juglar more than he did.

Kerrys entire foreign policy was based on UN support. Now that the latest CIA report has confirmed that the UN is rotten to the core and Jaques and Vladimir were among those on the "take" from Saddam, Kerry has no foreign policy... period.

LOL. Interesting what people think about what they read. You probably think To Kill a Mockingbird is about greedy trial lawyers.

I disagree about the war issue, Bush hammered Kerry into a little whimpering pulp on the war and foreign policy.

I admit that Kerry had the advantage of not having had to put his policies to the test, but it should be obvious to anyone except the most salivary of Bush fans that the foreign policy of the current administration has alienated our allies, squandered the good will from 9/11 and led to an increase in global terrorism. Plus my friends in England are afraid to come here for fear they may be sent to Gitmo. (One of them used to be a folk singer.)

Domestic issues, ah kind of a draw except for Kerry saying he would not raise taxes and in the next few breaths saying he would repeal the current tax cuts. Bush is no conservative when it comes to spending and he squirmed a lot on the pork spending question.

I really thought Kerry overdid it with the "tax cuts for the rich" line. Not that it isn't true, but certainly it is not the only problem/solution out there. Bush deserves to be hammered for his undying devotion to the upper class, but the issue becomes stale after a while. There were so many other things Kerry could have nailed him on. I think Bush got off light on the environment issue. One of his first flip-flops was to reverse his standing on arsenic in water levels. Bush clearly lost the Kyoto issue, but Kerry didn't press it.

Honestly, it seemed to me that Kerry was pulling his punches. I really wish he hadn't.

 

[Mercutio]

One of my favorite lines (and I will admit my atheist bias) was whe W was describing the kind of person he would nominate for the SC. No litmus test at all, sez W, I don't know who I would pick. Wouldn't even give any names "because I want everybody to vote for me" (surely I misheard that--please correct that quote if you can), but he could tell you who he would not nominate...any judge who, for instance, won't let kids say the pledge of allegiance because it has the words "under god" in it.

No litmus test except seeing the Constitution as I see it....

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

What I thought won the debate for Kerry was that he was dropping names.... REPUBLICAN names and well known ones... when criticizing the Bush administration actions.

Bush mentioned, I think, one guy during the debates (other then himself many many times) and I had never even heard of the guy.

I know this comes from being a skilled debater but Kerry wasn't just saying that he though Bush was wrong. He also did a pretty good job of showing that even those in Bush's own party disagree with him.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Best sound byte(s) of the debate:
When Kerry looks into the camera and says "I will not raise taxes" and a few questions later, says "I will roll back the President's tax cuts". Um, uh...

The Um Uh was actually ..."ON those who make under $200,000 a year"... err um Your typical style of editorializing. There was no period after the words raise taxes . Period.

THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!!

People who support Bush believe Bush won the debate, people who support Kerry believe he won. The undecideds are still..well.. undecided.

edit :misfired cut-n-paste. cripes i hate this keyboard.

 

[Nitpick]

One of my favorite lines (and I will admit my atheist bias) was whe W was describing the kind of person he would nominate for the SC. No litmus test at all, sez W, I don't know who I would pick. Wouldn't even give any names "because I want everybody to vote for me" (surely I misheard that--please correct that quote if you can), but he could tell you who he would not nominate...any judge who, for instance, won't let kids say the pledge of allegiance because it has the words "under god" in it.

No litmus test except seeing the Constitution as I see it....

Yes, for me this was the weirdest moment of the debate and I'm glad at least someone else was also struck by it.
I think the problem isn't so much that someone's trying to objectivize his own beliefs while dismissing those of other people as "personal opinions" (many people do it on a regular basis), but the fact that he didn't seem to notice (the implications of) what he was saying - otherwise he would have tried to attenuate (or at least disguise) the contradiction a little.

It must be really reassuring to live in such a plainly structured 2-Bit world.


Washington Post Transcript (scroll down a few inches)

Edited to correct the anchor in the link.

 

[Ladewig]

As for who won, I might give Kerry a narrow victory, but I am almost certain that if follow up questions were allowed, Bush would have had his rear handed to him.

GRABEL: President Bush, during the last four years, you have made thousands of decisions that have affected millions of lives. Please give three instances in which you came to realize you had made a wrong decision, and what you did to correct it. Thank you.

BUSH: I have made a lot of decisions, and some of them little, like appointments to boards you never heard of, and some of them big.

And in a war, there's a lot of -- there's a lot of tactical decisions that historians will look back and say: He shouldn't have done that. He shouldn't have made that decision. And I'll take responsibility for them. I'm human.

But on the big questions, about whether or not we should have gone into Afghanistan, the big question about whether we should have removed somebody in Iraq, I'll stand by those decisions, because I think they're right.

That's really what you're -- when they ask about the mistakes, that's what they're talking about. They're trying to say, "Did you make a mistake going into Iraq?" And the answer is, "Absolutely not." It was the right decision.

So Bush figures that when someone asks for three examples of wrong decisions, that person is expecting to hear, "Iraq, Iraq, Iraq"?

 

[Ladewig]

Wouldn't even give any names "because I want everybody to vote for me" (surely I misheard that--please correct that quote if you can),

"Because I want them all voting for me." He was making a joke about wanting all potential appointees voting for him.

 

[Atlas]

I thought Iheard Bush say Senator Kennedy was the most liberal senator when clearly he was repeating the knock that Senator Kerry is.

This debate did one thing. It made the distinction clear between the two. If you thought there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between the candidates there were several issues showing a clear distinction.

I wonder why Bush never accuses Kerry of not naming the nations that would have broadened the coalition if he had done it the "smarter" way. The obvious contenders were Russia, China, and France - all permanent members of the security council.

Bush shies away from pointing that out. I wonder if as President he is unable to diss our "allies" just because we are already alienated. Perhaps when the UN oil for food scandal report actually comes out their will be a chance for rapprochement that shouldn't be squandered.

 

[UserGoogol]

Bush does better in phone polls because his reactionary base has managed to learn how to use a telephone over the last hundred years or so - while those newfangled 'internets' are a little tricky for his Republican supporters to master.

Ah, so I wasn't hallucinating when I thought I heard him say "internets." As a geek (viewing the debate over CSpan's streaming video, of all things) it really stuck in my craw.

It seemed to me that Bush was trying to make a main argument that Kerry is bad because his multifaceted opinions make people sad.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Well we gotta keep an eye on them "internets" cuz next thing ya know the'll go "nukular!"

 

[corplinx]

I thought the biggest misstep in the debate was when Kerry had his turn to answer the first environment question. Instead of trotting out a better record and policy than Bush, he just acted smug and pretended that Joe Sixpack knows he is regarded as bigtime environmentalist. He went on the attack.

Big mistakte, John Kerry isn't doing as well with women voters as Bill Clinton did. He should have tried to knock Bush out of the water by giving ideas and not attacking Bush's record.

His attack rang hollow with all but his base who follow and criticize Bush on his environmental record. Perhaps if the attack had been better executed I wouldn't be saying this. But since it flopped to everyone but the faithful I think the safer move would have been:

Kerry: "Mr. President, here is my plan and you may want to take notes".

The environmental issue sort of makes me wince. Mr. Kerry is a New England tea and crumpet environmentalist. He marks out for these environementalist lobbyists ideas and then acts just as stubborn in defending them as Mr. Bush does about religious influenced policy even when the facts contradict him 100 percent.

I remember when Kerry was challenged over his statements on Anwar 2 years ago on TV. The host rolled out the reputable facts from real studies right in front of Kerry that sank right through his rhetoric. Kerry of course just brushed it off and kept reciting the slogans of the day.

Mr. Kerry, you are not going to be the science president when you win. Replacing Jesus with Mother Earth doesn't make you any better than Bush.

 

[zakur]

From FactCheck.org:

Distortions Galore at Second Presidential Debate

 

[ManfredVonRichthoffen]

Do you think Bush was wired during the first debate.
And if yes do you think they'll dare do it again in this one, now that the issue has been raised?

I looked at the pic. I don't think he was miked.

First based on the look. While I see a block at first glance, it doesn't look like a block on further inspection, it looks like my mind completes a block shape based on shadow and fabric color. Of course I'm looking at only one picture, and it isn't of the best quality.

Second based on reason. No one would but a block recording device square in the middle of his back that high up. It would have been put on his belt. Somewhere where it wouldn't have the chance of being seen. Never would anyone taping on a listening device think, "right between the shoulder blades ought to do it."

Third, also based on reason, I don't think he did well enough to make me believe he stacked the deck behind the scenes.

 

[ManfredVonRichthoffen]

pic