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Toddler Dies After Mistaking Gun For Realistic Wii Controller

The glock certainly does have a mechanical safety. Two actually, if I'm not mistaken. It has a firing pin block & trigger safety.
It does not have an external safety that inhibits firing if you pull the trigger. That's what I meant. That's what everyone means when they say the glock does not have a safety. Glocks have a reputation (I don't know if it is deserved or not) for ND due to this feature. The trigger safety may save you if you catch the trigger in the holster, say, but it may not. My XD has that same trigger safety. It still doesn't take much of a catch to cause the pistol to fire. OTOH, it does have a grip safety - you need to have your hand wrapped around the grip pretty solidly for the trigger pull to cause it to fire.

The glock has 3 safeties. None of them of the external, keep the gun from firing if the trigger is pulled type. The kind that would keep a 3 year old from shooting herself if she thought it was a wii controller, say.
 
Can you think of anything else that requires that much infrastructure and testing that only causes 600 or so deaths a year? IN comparison, there are over 23,000 accidental poisoning deaths a year - do you feel you need training, testing, and licensing to have, say, bleach or lye in the house?

I can't think of anything else in my home as dangerous as a gun that I might need to get to at a moment's notice or my life might be at stake. However, I have no problem with laws that would make it a crime not to secure dangerous poisons from the reach of small hands.

So the question wasn't directed to you, but I gather your answer to the question I asked is "no"?
 
That's pretty much how I feel. I think democrats who really give a **** as opposed to just thinking it's a stupid idea are fairly rare, yet I'm surrounded by people who are STILL convinced that Obama's trying to steal their guns and hate him for it.

During the 2008 campaign the NRA waged an all out insane propaganda campaign to convince its members that Obama had a "secret plan" to confiscate all guns. I am not a member of the NRA, but I did see the pamphlets and emails myself.

Before that, I had no strong particularly strong opinions about the NRA. After that I have concluded that they are either run by conspiracy minded loons or they think a majority of their members are conspiracy minded loons and have no problem taking advantage of that.

One change I would make to your statement: "People hate Obama and will make up or believe any crazy claim in order to justify their hatred". The guns claims is just one of many.
 
One change I would make to your statement: "People hate Obama and will make up or believe any crazy claim in order to justify their hatred". The guns claims is just one of many.


So you're saying he DOESN'T want to take away my right to shoot fish?
raise.gif
 
I can't think of anything else in my home as dangerous as a gun that I might need to get to at a moment's notice or my life might be at stake. However, I have no problem with laws that would make it a crime not to secure dangerous poisons from the reach of small hands.

So the question wasn't directed to you, but I gather your answer to the question I asked is "no"?
Pretty much. Not that I'm horrified at the thought, in abstract, but more in the implementation.

For example: ATV deaths run around 800-900 a year, more than the # of accidental gun discharges. I don't have current numbers, but the # of ATVs in the US runs around 10MM, and the number of guns is over 200MM. Somebody else posted that 1/6 of households have guns; I think we can stipulate that less than 1/6 of households have ATVs. From that, I conclude that it is extremely likely that having an ATV in the home is more dangerous than having a gun in the home. And that ignores injuries. I don't have the data on that; I'm willing to agree that guns might pose more danger here, but I'm going to guess that a close investigation would show that ATV cause more injuries (say, requiring a trip to the ER as a definition).

We don't require licensing and testing for ATVs. We don't require a proven security plan for storing the keys. Etc.

Think of the cost of implementing a program for over 200MM firearms. At best, you save just over 600 lives a year, if that program somehow stopped every ND. Note it would not have saved this toddler - the firearm in question was kept in a secure place, etc.

It just doesn't seem like the best use of limited resources. Sure, you can make it 'pay for itself' with license fees or whatever, but there are second order effects - do you want to pay somebody to go into homes inspecting for firearms safes, or do you want to pay that same person to perform some other safety function - such as teach defensive driving.

Legality is a different issue. You can make it a law, say, that you need to have loaded guns in gun safes if there is a child under the age of X in the house. That would give you another means to prosecute in the case of a ND fatality. But that is open to a lot of debate - can I carry in a holster, can I shoot a gun on my own property, etc. It's doable, just complicated, and to me would be a better use of resources, while still getting the message out about gun safety.

None of my thinking is based on the 2nd amendment, it's more what would I like, ignoring the 2nd amendment. I.e., I'm not saying the 2nd amendment says I can have a gun, so no rules prohibiting it. Also, everything I'm saying here is based solely on safe handling of firearms - criminal activity is way beyond the scope of the OP.

And it's based on the recognition that we are really bad at accessing risks. ND from a gun is just not a very high risk compared to other things we face all the time. It's somewhat higher than X, lower than Y, but we have tons of laws about guns and more being proposed all the time.

Pools have far more deaths per year than guns, per household owning guns/pools. So far as I know there is no licensing program in effect to prove you know how to run a pool. There's probably zoning requirement in some towns requiring a fence, I don't know. I know wunky's (my SO) father has a backyard pool - no fence around it, so there was certainly no zoning in that VA county at the time of installation. I think he is taking a significantly higher risk than I am with my pistol and no pool. I don't feel the urge to press congress to enact new, tougher laws on the issue. He is responsible about it.

edited to add: he has a fence around the property - people can't wander in off the street, but there's nothing stopping his nieces from wandering out the back door and into the pool except vigilance.
 
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Where is all the anti-gun support then?

Read my post earlier on this page.

You could call me "anti-gun"
I think going in the direction of the UK would save lives in the long run.
I think closing the gun show loophole and doing more to enforce current laws are much more achievable and more important.

But, as I said above, it's not in my top 10 political issues. My money and votes are cast toward much more important things.

The question to ask is, given the real weakness of any threat to gun rights, and the comparative weakness of those "threats to life and family" that particularly handguns are meant to address, why are so many of the pro-gun minority making this issue such a voting/funding priority?
 
For example: ATV deaths run around 800-900 ...

Roger, when I addressed your post about poisoning, you dismissed any attempt to parse the details or try to understand the real risk level. Now you're bringing up numbers again?

If you want to talk numbers as a measure of risk, but you don't want to talk about what those numbers mean and how they divide up more specifically, then you're just avoiding rational debate.
 
It seems every gun thread I have to mention two of my three shooting buddies are the very definition of "liberal." My inclination to associate guns with political ideologies disappeared a long time ago.





When I was in high school we had battery-powered water pistols that looked exactly like UZIs (you loaded water into the magazine and everything). They nearly got us shot by a cop in our school parking lot one day. That sort of turned me around on the realistic toy gun issue.

That was a neat toy item - mine no linger works, but it still looks cool!!:)
However, I never used it/carried it anywhere it could have got me shot at!!
Just had it at SF cons, in the dealer room (we also fired the old Star Trek disc guns a lot).
 
Healthcare and the absence of proper Gun control are reasons why I never moved to the US. I've been tempted, but cant get past these issues.

Hand guns were banned outright in the UK after a terrible incident. A legitimate Gun owner walked into a junior school with 2 guns and started shooting 4 year old children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

The Dunblane massacre was a multiple murder-suicide which occurred at Dunblane Primary School in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. Sixteen children and one adult were killed by the attacker, Thomas Watt Hamilton, before he committed suicide. It remains the deadliest single targeted mass murder of children in the history of the United Kingdom.

It shocked the country. The USA is admitedly a different place - probably more violent anyway, but the only reasons for owning a handgun in the UK was 1. hobbiest/shooting for pleasure and 2. Sport.

If, the banning of handguns in the UK saved just a single childs life then it was worth it. For the people who used to enjoy shooting it up at their local range - tough, go find another hobby. Go paintballing instead. There wasnt much resistance to the ban.
 
First, there is no such thing as a "must issue" state. State CCW laws are either "shall issue", "may issue", or "no issue".

And, as usual, you're wrong. CCW permits are issued by law enforcement agencies, and all applicants have to be vetted to ensure that they are allowed by both federal and state law to possess firearms -- ie. no outstanding felony convictions, no involuntary committment or significant history of mental illness, no outstanding no-contact orders, etc. The only difference between "shall issue" and "may issue" states is that in a "shall issue" state a qualified applicant does not have to prove need, and cannot be arbitrarily denied a permit. Most "shall issue" states include an "opt-out" clause that allows private businesses to prohibit the carry of firearms on their premises. Violation of a private prohibition will result in immediate revocation of the CCW permit.

There are only 10 "may issue" and 3 "no issue" states in the US (including D.C.); 37 others are "shall issue".

The sole exception to this is Vermont, which does not issue permits; but instead allows completely unrestricted carry for anyone who is legally permitted to own and keep firearms under federal and state law. Vermont also has the 3th lowest violent crime rate in the US, with only North Dakota and Maine being lower, both of which are "shall issue" states. Beyond that, states with "no issue" or "may issue" laws tend to be in the upper range of violent crime rates; but this varies considerably, and the results are skewed by high-crime major urban centers in otherwise low-crime states (eg. New York, Louisiana); with said municipalities typically having "no issue" laws, even when the rest of the state is "may issue", or even "shall issue" (eg. NYC).
Sounds like the states with higher violent crime stats are trying to do something about it.

The correlation can be taken either way
 
Well I am a Democrat, and I own a gun. I remember friends at the range saying stuff like "don't vote for Obama, they gonna take away our guns" and such. I don't think it is an issue, like the GOP is trying to make it sound like. Perhaps that is what it is, a GOP propaganda ploy. Vote Dem and lose the gun.



As much like a joke as this sounds to some, I am also anti-toy gun. I will never allow my children to have one, I will never give one as a gift, and I will probably give a stern talking to when I see someone that does.
you could always shoot them, thats pretty darn stern.
 
And yet I manage to pull a 15 pound trigger with ease all the time.

The safety is the four rules and in my opinion not loading the firearm until you are ready to shoot it. This "cocked and locked" attitude blows my mind.

Did you see the rasmussen poll results? 50% plus (generally more than 50%) of people fall on the greater gun freedom side.
Did you see the rasmussen poll results? 50% plus (generally more than 50%) of people fall on the greater gun freedom side.
Americans... your all nuts, or scared, or both .
 
Roger, when I addressed your post about poisoning, you dismissed any attempt to parse the details or try to understand the real risk level. Now you're bringing up numbers again?

If you want to talk numbers as a measure of risk, but you don't want to talk about what those numbers mean and how they divide up more specifically, then you're just avoiding rational debate.
I'm not terribly interested in parsing things out in excruciating detail when my point is general - accidental discharges are not a significant risk per capita or per household compared to other risks we face. Roughly 600 or so die due to ND. Cars, drugs, etc. run to mid 5 figures. No parsing of numbers is going to change those relative proportions, so no, I'm not really interested in going into the detailed numbers. To make this clear, I think to do an ironclad job would take at least a books worth of work. Neither of us are going to do that amount of work, are we? So, we'd just be postering with numbers. In any case, I'm really only interested in # of deaths as a whole, and then roughly a per household number. After all, if I bring an ATV, pool, or gun into the house, that's the only number I really need, right? (yes, other numbers are helpful, but not needed so much).

I added in some extra #s about household rates in terms of the ATV in deference to your requests to do so.

So, from where I'm sitting, I feel like I'm being criticized if I don't break it down by household, and now I'm being criticized because I did. That doesn't seem right.


And, to repeat, once again, my point is that we do not access risks accurately. I don't care if it turns out that under reasonable definitions it turns out ATVs are a bit less dangerous than guns - I happily concede the possibility. And if you want to do the work, be my guest - I'll honestly read the results with interest. I just see an amount of fear mongering about the safety of guns that seems all out of proportion of the actual risk they represent.
 
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Badboy, most of the massacres in America happened in gun free zones.

And over here, we have a REALLY bad case of human rights gone nuts. If a burglar breaks into your house and injures himself, he CAN sue you. Fat lot of good the European court of Human Rights is. :mad::eek:

As well as that, the Soviet Union by your logic was a nice place to be because guns were b&, and so were Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Nazi Germany and Idi Amin's Uganda.:rolleyes:

Here's a scenario. A man has broken into your home and you suspect he is going for your family. What would YOU rather have? A Shotgun, or a police phone?

If, the banning of handguns in the UK saved just a single childs life then it was worth it

Over how many killed by yobs with knives or dangerous dogs? Would Gary Newlove still be alive if he were armed?
 
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The glock certainly does have a mechanical safety. Two actually, if I'm not mistaken. It has a firing pin block & trigger safety..
The problem is that the Glock doesn't have a positive safety switch; which leads to many people assuming that they have no safety at all. As you noted, they have two seperate external safety systems, and one internal; but the safeties are incorporated so as to quickly disengage when the gun is held in a firing position (this requires both a hand on the grip, and a finger on the trigger, something you never do unless you're preparing to fire). This renders the firearm both very safe when carried/stored/dropped; and eliminates user error when under pressure.
That's what everyone means when they say the glock does not have a safety.
Not true. Some people actually believe that the Glock has no safety at all, because it does not have a positive switch. I've see that claim on this very board in previous threads.
Glocks have a reputation (I don't know if it is deserved or not) for ND due to this feature. The trigger safety may save you if you catch the trigger in the holster, say, but it may not. My XD has that same trigger safety. It still doesn't take much of a catch to cause the pistol to fire. OTOH, it does have a grip safety - you need to have your hand wrapped around the grip pretty solidly for the trigger pull to cause it to fire.
I'm not sure what "ND" means in this context; but Glocks have one of the best reputations for accidental discharge among law enforcement and other knowledgible sources. All drop tests show one of the lowest rates of accidental discharge of any handgun. Trigger snag is also much less of an issue, since both the grip safety and the trigger safety must be depressed to enable it to fire.
 
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A few points:
1) Us "NRA gun nuts" wouldn't argue that the child should be armed. Rather, we argue that young children should be educated to respect guns and not to treat them like toys. Dad's toolbox isn't full of toys and neither is his gun safe. This tragedy occurred, in part, because this child didn't learn that lesson.
2) A second reason this happened is because the gun's owner is irresponsible. Leaving your loaded weapon on the kitchen table and FORGETTING it?!? Owning firearms comes with certain responsibilities, and not leaving them just lying around is certainly one of them. Loaded, unloaded, with children around, or without - you just don't do it.
3) If you own real guns, why would you have a realistic toy gun to play games with?!? That's asking for trouble, and undermining the lesson as mentioned in #1.
4) Children imitate the behaviors they see. The outcome I would have expected of a child finding a firearm sitting on the table in that home involves a hole in the tv, not the loss of life. I darkly suspect that the story in the article bears little resemblance to the actual event.

I'm not into guns myself, but I agree with point 4. If the child confused the gun for a controller, why did he shoot himself and not the TV?
 

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