Today's Mass Shooting

[Bogative]

A surprisingly small weekly roundup, there's only one.

4 injured in a Hartford, Connecticut shooting.


Kind of your typical all-American teenage hijinks that involves a stolen car, a drive-up and hop out of the stolen car to attempt a murder on Tuesday. Followed up with more attempted murder of four people on Thursday. Finished off with a high-speed chase, crash and felony evasion.

If only these fellas had access to some midnight basketball…

Ja’kye Preston, 18, Shawn Chung, 18, and three other juveniles between the ages of 16 and 17-years-old were charged with four counts of first-degree assault, first-degree conspiracy to commit assault, carrying a pistol without a permit and third-degree larceny.

 

[jimbob]

Wouldn't it be really neat if some kind of objective data were available to test this hypothesis?

ETA: every firearm that ends up "on the street" began with an (ostensibly) legal sale to a qualified owner. A lot of weapons featured in high-profile shootings never wandered far from the legal owner.

To me, that was the only legitimate part of your statement. I consider the rest to just be inflammatory drivel. You can believe it, but I'm not going to debate it.

Off topic but a reply:

If you're a black and lived in Baltimore or Fergusson, to take a couple of examples that have been investigated thoroughly, you might have a different view.

Fergusson police didn't kill that many blacks, but they did target them for fines for revenue at a huge level. 9000 fines in 2013 for a population of 21,000 contributing ~10% of the general fund revenue and by 2015 > 23% from fines and court fees.

There is nothing to suppose that these are or were outstandingly bad, simply that these were forces that have been investigated deeply.

I also would like to be able to hold police forces to a significantly higher standard than criminals.

This is not the thread about police violence, which (rightly) has its own thread, with lots of utterly shocking examples.

 

[bluesjnr]

Off topic but a reply:

If you're a black and lived in Baltimore or Fergusson, to take a couple of examples that have been investigated thoroughly, you might have a different view.

Fergusson police didn't kill that many blacks, but they did target them for fines for revenue at a huge level. 9000 fines in 2013 for a population of 21,000 contributing ~10% of the general fund revenue and by 2015 > 23% from fines and court fees.

There is nothing to suppose that these are or were outstandingly bad, simply that these were forces that have been investigated deeply.

I also would like to be able to hold police forces to a significantly higher standard than criminals.

This is not the thread about police violence, which (rightly) has its own thread, with lots of utterly shocking examples.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

 

[jimbob]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

it was replying to this conversation and the dismissal of the observation Belz... made

Her (alleged) concerns about her daughter are part of a culture that is pushing a picture of police brutality that is completely untethered from reality. Her fears are irrational, to put it kindly.

It's hard, from an outsider's viewpoint to the US, to understand the kind of ignorance or ideological blinders that could possibly lead someone to say something like this.

What is that supposed to mean, and why did that justify ignoring the actual meat of my post?

To me, that was the only legitimate part of your statement. I consider the rest to just be inflammatory drivel. You can believe it, but I'm not going to debate it.

​

ETA:

It's easy if you're somewhere in the US where police are not that much of a danger to you to ignore it.
In many other parts of the country they systematically target minorities.

I refuse to believe that issuing 9 fines for every 21 people in the city in a year (disproportionately targeting blacks) is remotely reasonable - especially with a paper trail asserting a focus on revenue generation.

African Americans experience disparate impact in nearly every aspect of Ferguson’s law
enforcement system. Despite making up 67% of the population, African Americans accounted
for 85% of FPD’s traffic stops, 90% of FPD’s citations, and 93% of FPD’s arrests from 2012 to
2014. Other statistical disparities, set forth in detail below, show that in Ferguson:
 African Americans are 2.07 times more likely to be searched during a vehicular
stop but are 26% less likely to have contraband found on them during a search.
They are 2.00 times more likely to receive a citation and 2.37 times more likely to
be arrested following a vehicular stop.
 African Americans have force used against them at disproportionately high rates,
accounting for 88% of all cases from 2010 to August 2014 in which an FPD
officer reported using force. In all 14 uses of force involving a canine bite for
which we have information about the race of the person bitten, the person was
African American.
 African Americans are more likely to receive multiple citations during a single
incident, receiving four or more citations on 73 occasions between October 2012
and July 2014, whereas non-African Americans received four or more citations
only twice during that period.
 African Americans account for 95% of Manner of Walking charges; 94% of all
Fail to Comply charges; 92% of all Resisting Arrest charges; 92% of all Peace
Disturbance charges; and 89% of all Failure to Obey charges.
38
 African Americans are 68% less likely than others to have their cases dismissed
by the Municipal Judge, and in 2013 African Americans accounted for 92% of
cases in which an arrest warrant was issued.

And there is no reason to suppose FPD was atypical

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Do you think that when Michelle Obama (who has a net worth of well over $50 million) says that she's afraid every time her daughters get in a car by themselves, she means that she's afraid they might be fined?

 

[Fonebone]

Every beast preys upon another,
Man is wolf to man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oRN0VeJlu4

 

[jimbob]

Do you think that when Michelle Obama (who has a net worth of well over $50 million) says that she's afraid every time her daughters get in a car by themselves, she means that she's afraid they might be fined?

Michelle Obama didn't say anything about being fined. That was my pointing out some of the systemic and systematic racism in some police departments.

Some blacks in Fergusson were arrested solely for "resisting arrest". There was disproportionate use of force against blacks.

Michelle Obama said "They're driving. But every time they get in a car by themselves, I worry about what assumption is being made by somebody who doesn't know everything about them,"...."The innocent act of getting a license puts fear in our hearts"

I assume the daughters do not have a Secret Service detail when they're driving? If so, then, just because they're presumably in nice cars, it doesn't protect them unless cases get to law. At least they are female, which makes them less at risk, but it was perfectly reasonable.

There is a whole thread on this - but in the case of the Obama daughters, sadly, they are almost certainly more at risk from police officers than from random shooters.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I assume the daughters do not have a Secret Service detail when they're driving? If so, then, just because they're presumably in nice cars, it doesn't protect them unless cases get to law.

Protect them from what?

At least they are female, which makes them less at risk, but it was perfectly reasonable.

Less at risk of what?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Michelle Obama didn't say anything about being fined. That was my pointing out some of the systemic and systematic racism in some police departments.



Some blacks in Fergusson were arrested solely for "resisting arrest". There was disproportionate use of force against blacks.



Michelle Obama said "They're driving. But every time they get in a car by themselves, I worry about what assumption is being made by somebody who doesn't know everything about them,"...."The innocent act of getting a license puts fear in our hearts"



I assume the daughters do not have a Secret Service detail when they're driving? If so, then, just because they're presumably in nice cars, it doesn't protect them unless cases get to law. At least they are female, which makes them less at risk, but it was perfectly reasonable.



There is a whole thread on this - but in the case of the Obama daughters, sadly, they are almost certainly more at risk from police officers than from random shooters.

I've seen a few cases where the car being very nice and a black person driving it seemed to be the "probable cause" for the stop.

 

[jimbob]

I assume the daughters do not have a Secret Service detail when they're driving? If so, then, just because they're presumably in nice cars, it doesn't protect them unless cases get to law.

Protect them from what?

Actions by police officers *before* they get access to lawyers. It's all very well a police officer getting disciplined for illegal use of force after the fact, it wouldn't undo any use of force in the first place.

At least they are female, which makes them less at risk, but it was perfectly reasonable.

Less at risk of what?

At the worst, being shot for being black and being perceived to be a threat.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

At the worst, being shot for being black and being perceived to be a threat.

Can you explain your 'thought experiement' in a bit more detail?

Let's say Malia is driving her Chrysler 300c to Whole foods to buy arugula. What happens next?

 

[Andy_Ross]

She gets stopped for being black in charge of a motor vehicle. When she asks why she gets the **** kicked out of her for resisting arrest

You can see plenty of videos of this happening.

If she's unlucky she might get shot or tasered.

 

[catsmate]

Neal Boortz said it best when he sid massacres happen because law abiding citizens obey the law and have no access to a firearm. Bad guys ignore the law and take a gun there and shoot the unarmed law abiding citizens. If the victims could fight back maybe these massacres would stop.

That is of course complete and utter bollocks. But then that's what I'd expect from a climate-change denying libertarian.

 

[jimbob]

Can you explain your 'thought experiement' in a bit more detail?

Let's say Malia is driving her Chrysler 300c to Whole foods to buy arugula. What happens next?

She gets stopped for being black in charge of a motor vehicle. When she asks why she gets the **** kicked out of her for resisting arrest

You can see plenty of videos of this happening.

If she's unlucky she might get shot or tasered.

Captain_Swoop has it right. It wasn't difficult or (sadly) something that requires any incredulity.

One might say that it's only anecdotal, but there's plenty of evidence where it's been investigated. More statistics should be collected... but they aren't. What we have shows a bad problem.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Captain_Swoop has it right. It wasn't difficult or (sadly) something that requires any incredulity.

One might say that it's only anecdotal, but there's plenty of evidence where it's been investigated. More statistics should be collected... but they aren't. What we have shows a bad problem.

I don't think either of you find a single video that captures Captain Swoop's scenario:

1) stopped for being black in charge of a motor vehicle

2) When she asks why she gets the **** kicked out of her for resisting arrest


Those are both copied and pasted from Captain's post, along with the assertion:

You can see plenty of videos of this happening.

Furthermore, you'd have to find quite a few videos to make it reasonable to "live in fear" as is so commonly claimed.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

The disparity in contacts is well documented.

Numerous links between white nationalist organizations and some law enforcement agencies have been exposed. The implications are rather self-apparent.

What alternative explanation is being put forward to explain the disparity?

Pure incredulity just smells (reeks) like denialism.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

What alternative explanation is being put forward to explain the disparity?

I wasn't aware anyone was trying to explain a disparity. Are you talking about the disparity between men being stopped by police and women being stopped by police? If we took that into account Michelle would have even less of a reasons to be afraid.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I wasn't aware anyone was trying to explain a disparity. Are you talking about the disparity between men being stopped by police and women being stopped by police? If we took that into account Michelle would have even less of a reasons to be afraid.

I love how some people, when they can't muster a response but nevertheless have to say something, resort to acting like they are unfamiliar with the discussion they have been participating in.

I believe your confusion is tactical and deserving of contempt.

I could be wrong, I suppose.

ETA: besides, nobody has to have previously introduced the issue of disparity (though you don't have to scroll up that far...) for me to ask that question.

Please, explain where you came up with that idea?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I love how some people, when they can't muster a response but nevertheless have to say something, resort to acting like they are unfamiliar with the discussion they have been participating in.

I believe your confusion is tactical and deserving of contempt.

I could be wrong, I suppose.

OK, so you accused me of being unfamiliar with the discussion as a "tactic" of some sort that was deserving of contempt. Then upon realizing that it was you who where unfamiliar with the discussion you've been participating in added this:

besides, nobody has to have previously introduced the issue of disparity (though you don't have to scroll up that far...) for me to ask that question.

It seems like you want to bring up a disparity in contacts between the police and white people and police and black people.

I agree. There is one.

I still think Michelle Obama's (alleged) fears are silly.

 

[jimbob]

OK, so you accused me of being unfamiliar with the discussion as a "tactic" of some sort that was deserving of contempt. Then upon realizing that it was you who where unfamiliar with the discussion you've been participating in added this:



It seems like you want to bring up a disparity in contacts between the police and white people and police and black people.

I agree. There is one.

I still think Michelle Obama's (alleged) fears are silly.

Evidence for your position?

Oh there isn't any because the statistics are not collected.