Today's Mass Shooting

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Captain_Swoop said:
If only there was some kind of control of guns like in the rest of the developed and civilised world!
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There is. Gun control (which as always is more about control than guns) in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, and Washington DC put European gun control to shame. If guns were the problem, the inner cities would be islands of peace in a raging sea of death. Instead, it's the inverse, the higher the rate of legal gun ownership, the lower the crime rate, in general.
 
cmikes said:
There is. Gun control (which as always is more about control than guns) in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, and Washington DC put European gun control to shame. If guns were the problem, the inner cities would be islands of peace in a raging sea of death. Instead, it's the inverse, the higher the rate of legal gun ownership, the lower the crime rate, in general.
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I have seen this put forward a few times.

It's ****.

When you can just drive up the road and buy all the guns you want any local control is meaningless.

There is effectively no control.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Illegal guns were legal at one time.
If it wasn't so easy to buy them and record keeping so **** you wouldn't have the problem.
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Exactly. The legal market is the source for the black market.

Few guns are manufactured illegally, few guns are sold to illegal purchasers on first sale. If the black market is awash with guns, it is because the legal gun owners have been madly irresponsible.
 
cmikes said:
There is. Gun control (which as always is more about control than guns) in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, and Washington DC put European gun control to shame. If guns were the problem, the inner cities would be islands of peace in a raging sea of death. Instead, it's the inverse, the higher the rate of legal gun ownership, the lower the crime rate, in general.
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That's an utterly stupid thing to say. How can gun control not be totally about guns?
 
cmikes said:
There is. Gun control (which as always is more about control than guns) in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, and Washington DC put European gun control to shame. If guns were the problem, the inner cities would be islands of peace in a raging sea of death. Instead, it's the inverse, the higher the rate of legal gun ownership, the lower the crime rate, in general.
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This is where your argument falls down. They are NOT islands, they are not isolated. They are simply boundary lines on a crowded map. Ten minutes drive outside those lines and you can buy truckloads of legal guns and ammo.

Gun control in the USA is going to work only when the whole country is under a consistent policed policy. Which is to say: never.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Illegal guns were legal at one time.
If it wasn't so easy to buy them and record keeping so **** you wouldn't have the problem.

You have more guns than people and little control of them.

It is only ever going to get worse.

It's too late to do anything about it.

All you can do is keep a record as a warning to the rest of the world.
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cmikes said:
There is. Gun control (which as always is more about control than guns) in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, and Washington DC put European gun control to shame. If guns were the problem, the inner cities would be islands of peace in a raging sea of death. Instead, it's the inverse, the higher the rate of legal gun ownership, the lower the crime rate, in general.
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crescent said:
Exactly. The legal market is the source for the black market.

Few guns are manufactured illegally, few guns are sold to illegal purchasers on first sale. If the black market is awash with guns, it is because the legal gun owners have been madly irresponsible.
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Yup


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462834/

Among the main findings of these research studies are: (1) New guns are recovered disproportionately in crime;11,13,16–18,22 (2) Some licensed firearm retailers are disproportionately frequent sources of crime guns; these retailers are linked to more guns traced by ATF than would be expected from their overall volume of gun sales;24 (3) Under test conditions, significant proportions of licensed retailers and private party gun sellers will knowingly participate in illegal gun sales;25,26 (4) On average, about one third of guns used in crime in any community are acquired in that community, another third come from elsewhere in the same state, and a third are brought from other states;11,13,16–18,22 (5) There are longstanding interstate trafficking routes for crime guns, typically from states with weaker gun regulations to states with stronger ones. The best known of these is the “Iron Pipeline” from the Southeast to the Middle Atlantic and New England.11,13,16–18,22
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And we know that illegal firearms are also a liability. They are evidence of crime, so whilst legal firearms often last decades, illegal ones tend to last a few weeks until used in a crime, whereupon they're disposed of. In the US criminals tend to use multiple guns. In the UK guns are used by multiple criminals - and are often reconditioned and somewhat improvised in the first place.
 
Norman Alexander said:
This is where your argument falls down. They are NOT islands, they are not isolated. They are simply boundary lines on a crowded map. Ten minutes drive outside those lines and you can buy truckloads of legal guns and ammo.

Gun control in the USA is going to work only when the whole country is under a consistent policed policy. Which is to say: never.
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Or when enough people can be convinced that they are bad. I think a long term plan needs to be set, even if it takes 100 years. And we have to begin now.

And you can't force it, at least not until most people are on board.

The thing that changed my mind about guns was the amount of constant killings coupled with the stupid arguments I hear from gun enthusiasts, including those in my family. Ya know, thinking rationally. The more I hear them talk the more ridiculous they sound to me now.

There is hope and I think it has to be done. Guns have no place in a healthy society in today's world.

Maybe the US will simply be left behind. The way things are going I am seriously considering leaving.
 
mgidm86 said:
Or when enough people can be convinced that they are bad.
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Again - never going to happen.

The Sandy Hook shooting, when an elementary school was attacked with legally-owned weapons and an entire classroom of first-graders was massacred, among others, all things being equal, should have been the straw that broke that broke the camel's back for the vast majority of Americans. But the response of gun supporters, recognizing that sweeping gun control measures were an obvious, justified, and common-sense societal reaction to such an event, was to challenge reality - to callously declare that the twenty children and six adults killed in the attack in fact never existed, and their grieving parents, co-workers, the two surviving wounded victims, and other witnesses to the shooting all conspired with "the government" to stage the fake massacre expressly for the purpose of justifying gun control measures, which made that justification invalid and allowed them to continue to fight against any such measures as they arose.
 
Checkmite said:
Again - never going to happen.

The Sandy Hook shooting, when an elementary school was attacked with legally-owned weapons and an entire classroom of first-graders was massacred, among others, all things being equal, should have been the straw that broke that broke the camel's back for the vast majority of Americans.
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But in america that is known as effective marketing and bound in increase sales of the firearm used. Lots of legal gun owners want to be able to clear out elementary schools apparently.
 
Periodic sacrifices of schoolchildren are a price the USA is prepared to pay for easy access to assault weapons and automatic pistols.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Periodic sacrifices of schoolchildren are a price the USA is prepared to pay for easy access to assault weapons and automatic pistols.
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Correct.

And it's not like that's spin. They explicitly say it - most commonly with their usually misattributed "those who give up a little liberty" platitude.
 
Checkmite said:
Again - never going to happen.

The Sandy Hook shooting, when an elementary school was attacked with legally-owned weapons and an entire classroom of first-graders was massacred, among others, all things being equal, should have been the straw that broke that broke the camel's back for the vast majority of Americans. But the response of gun supporters, recognizing that sweeping gun control measures were an obvious, justified, and common-sense societal reaction to such an event, was to challenge reality - to callously declare that the twenty children and six adults killed in the attack in fact never existed, and their grieving parents, co-workers, the two surviving wounded victims, and other witnesses to the shooting all conspired with "the government" to stage the fake massacre expressly for the purpose of justifying gun control measures, which made that justification invalid and allowed them to continue to fight against any such measures as they arose.
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Does anybody ever bother to look this stuff up? I keep hearing that it will never happen. It already is happening.

Evidence shows declines in gun ownership. "Never" is a very long time.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/despit...-of-households-owning-guns-is-on-the-decline/

The number of American households with guns has dropped 19 percentage points from 50 percent in 1977 to 31 percent in 2014 according to the General Social Survey of the National Opinion Research Center, which has surveyed about 2,000 Americans on the same set of questions since the early 1970's.

Survey results also show that hunting as a sport has declined since 1977, when 31 percent of Americans said they or their spouse hunted. More recently, in 2014, just 15 percent said they hunted.

.......

Yet despite this decline in households with guns, the sheer number of guns being produced and the number of background checks being done has risen sharply leading researchers to believe that more and more guns are becoming concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people.
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I believe it will happen one day. That's why I give it a hundred years. I have hope that, if this country survives long enough, that the newer generations will continue to eschew the outdated ideals of the previous. Religion is going down, guns too...

So, maybe we should act as if this is a real possibility and encourage it to continue somehow?
 
mgidm86 said:
Does anybody ever bother to look this stuff up? I keep hearing that it will never happen. It already is happening.

Evidence shows declines in gun ownership. "Never" is a very long time.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/despit...-of-households-owning-guns-is-on-the-decline/

I believe it will happen one day. That's why I give it a hundred years. I have hope that, if this country survives long enough, that the newer generations will continue to eschew the outdated ideals of the previous. Religion is going down, guns too...

So, maybe we should act as if this is a real possibility and encourage it to continue somehow?
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That has been the trend, but the pandemic pushed things in the other direction. Household ownership sharply increased. There was a piece in the Washington Post profiling liberals who bought guns in response to confrontations with armed right-wingers at BLM rallies. Lots of first-time gun owners.
 
Houston, Texas

3 dead, 2 injured during a shooting spree at a hotel.



Walnut Creek, California

1 dead, 3 wounded in a shooting outside the club.



Tucson, Arizona

2 dead, 4 injured in what appears to be a spree shooting.

The not-a-white-DVE shot two paramedics, killed one, after setting a house on fire. Circled back to the fire Where he shot a fireman and two neighbors.



13 mass shootings.

13 dead.

50 wounded.

Not a single white DVE on the trigger.
 
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