Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

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Captain_Swoop said:
If hammers could kill a classroom full of kids from a distance in a minute and were designed with the primary purpose of killing then yes, you might have a point.

Do the ones about cars and swimming pools next, they are always funny.
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So you're not even pretending that actually saving lives is the point when there's virtue to signal? How refreshing. Carry on.
 
cmikes said:
If empathy and compassion are going to be our only principles for public policy, you could save a lot more lives by setting a national speed limit of twenty five miles per hour than by banning guns. Or why not both?
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If you outlaw driving over 25 mph, then we'll all be outlaws. Let's make it first so that onboard computers will not let a car travel faster than 85 mph. Or, in the case of California, 70 mph. Unfortunately, this invites people to talk about the time they heroically escaped certain death by speeding out of a hairy situation. Yeah, I can't handle hearing those anecdotes, so let's just carry on with what we're doing/mass death.

Putting cars aside, this does cut at something often missing from these debates: It's relatively easy to advocate for gun control when you're not giving anything up. Framed as a discussion of public health, there are obviously other things we can do to save lives, such as imposing stricter regulations on alcohol and junk food, areas where more people have skin in the game. Then again, instead of just adding up lives saved, we should also consider life years, especially as guns are used to kill so many young people.

Captain_Swoop said:
If hammers could kill a classroom full of kids from a distance in a minute and were designed with the primary purpose of killing then yes, you might have a point.

Do the ones about cars and swimming pools next, they are always funny.
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I do recall something on Twitter where a hypothetical teacher mentioned a kid mercilessly beating others with a hammer. "Did you take away the hammer?" No, it's not the hammer's fault! The imagined "rational" solution predictably involved arming all of the other children with hammers.
 
Also we know that every single person in this thread making the stupid hammer argument would also object to banning hammers as well.
 
To be fair, if the cops stood around outside pissing their pants for an hour, a killer probably could achieve pretty high body counts with only a hammer.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
To be fair, if the cops stood around outside pissing their pants for an hour, a killer probably could achieve pretty high body counts with only a hammer.
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But they wouldn't likely stand around pissing their pants if he only had a hammer, right?

:rolleyes:

Hans
 
cmikes said:
It's not surprising that any kind of restrictions on rifles, scary looking assault or otherwise, would have no effect on crime statistics. After all, according to the FBI crime statistics, more people are beaten to death with blunt instruments or bare hands than are killed with rifles every year. Maybe we need to ban hammers.
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The reason is because handguns are so much more handy. Should handguns become harder to get hold of, that would change.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

or

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

| Weapons | 2015 | 2016 | 2017 | 2018 | 2019 |
|Total |13847 |15355 |15206 |14446 |13927 |
|Total firearms: |9143 |10398 |11014 |10445 |10258 |
|Handguns |6194 |6778 |7052 |6683 |6368 |
|Rifles |215 |300 |389 |305 |364 |
|Shotguns |248 |247 |263 |237 |200 |
|Other guns |152 |172 |178 |164 |45 |
|Firearms, type not stated |2334 |2901 |3132 |3056 |3281 |
|Knives or cutting instruments |1533 |1562 |1608 |1542 |1476 |
|Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) |438 |466 |474 |455 |397 |
|Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)1 |651 |668 |715 |712 |600 |
|Poison |8 |12 |15 |6 |16 |
|Explosives |1 |1 |0 |4 |3 |
|Fire |63 |78 |93 |76 |81 |
|Narcotics |70 |119 |112 |102 |93 |
|Drowning |12 |9 |8 |9 |7 |
|Strangulation |96 |97 |90 |75 |64 |
|Asphyxiation |105 |93 |112 |92 |92 |
|Other weapons or weapons not stated |1727 |1852 |965 |928 |840 |

 
MRC_Hans said:
But they wouldn't likely stand around pissing their pants if he only had a hammer, right?

:rolleyes:

Hans
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Never underestimate the cowardice, callous indifference to other people's lives, and the incompetence of the police.

But no, I imagine they would be less likely to behave so incredibly poorly in response to a hammer.
 
cmikes said:
So you're not even pretending that actually saving lives is the point when there's virtue to signal? How refreshing. Carry on.
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How did you work that out?

How are guns anything like hammers?
How are semi automatic assault rifles anything like hammers?

Grow up.

This is the kind of **** that makes me think it is time to leave this place.
 
cmikes said:
It's not surprising that any kind of restrictions on rifles, scary looking assault or otherwise, would have no effect on crime statistics. After all, according to the FBI crime statistics, more people are beaten to death with blunt instruments or bare hands than are killed with rifles every year. Maybe we need to ban hammers.
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You need a denominator here, plus a bit more on the variables. Are they including kid's killed by their caregivers? Are they including elderly who get punched once, fall, hit their heads and die from the head injury?

In each of those cases are there more than single victims?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Stand over there and I will shoot you with a mag full of .22lr I am sure you will be OK

A semi-auto .22 is not a brick.

Kids in classrooms are not soldiers in combat.

Are you just pretending to be stupid?
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If you don't think a .223 round is much more dangerous and lethal than a .22, I'm not the one who is stupid. If you're not shot in the head or the heart, you have a good chance of surviving a .22 wound. But a .223 causes so much tissue damage and blood loss that almost any wound can be fatal. If you're arguing that all semi-auto firearms and high-capacity magazines should be tightly restricted, I'm all for it. But if you're claiming that .223 assault rifles should not be subject to tough restrictions because you can do as much damage with a .22, you're off the rails.

And incidentally, how many mass shooting incidents have involved .22s? They're really not the problem.
 
jimbob said:
| Weapons | 2015 | 2016 | 2017 | 2018 | 2019 |
|Total |13847 |15355 |15206 |14446 |13927 |
|Total firearms: |9143 |10398 |11014 |10445 |10258 |
|Handguns |6194 |6778 |7052 |6683 |6368 |
|Rifles |215 |300 |389 |305 |364 |
|Shotguns |248 |247 |263 |237 |200 |
|Other guns |152 |172 |178 |164 |45 |
|Firearms, type not stated |2334 |2901 |3132 |3056 |3281 |
|Knives or cutting instruments |1533 |1562 |1608 |1542 |1476 |
|Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) |438 |466 |474 |455 |397 |
|Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)1 |651 |668 |715 |712 |600 |
|Poison |8 |12 |15 |6 |16 |
|Explosives |1 |1 |0 |4 |3 |
|Fire |63 |78 |93 |76 |81 |
|Narcotics |70 |119 |112 |102 |93 |
|Drowning |12 |9 |8 |9 |7 |
|Strangulation |96 |97 |90 |75 |64 |
|Asphyxiation |105 |93 |112 |92 |92 |
|Other weapons or weapons not stated |1727 |1852 |965 |928 |840 |

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Since people can be killed with hammers (and baseball bats, and large blunt objects), I wonder if manufacturers should include serial numbers. Should those items/tools be registered with the government? Or maybe cmikes think guns should be similarly deregulated so that they're treated like hammers, clubs, and bats...? Or, maybe we recognize a substantive difference between guns and hammers.
 
Bob001 said:
If you don't think a .223 round is much more dangerous and lethal than a .22, I'm not the one who is stupid. If you're not shot in the head or the heart, you have a good chance of surviving a .22 wound. But a .223 causes so much tissue damage and blood loss that almost any wound can be fatal. If you're arguing that all semi-auto firearms and high-capacity magazines should be tightly restricted, I'm all for it. But if you're claiming that .223 assault rifles should not be subject to tough restrictions because you can do as much damage with a .22, you're off the rails.

And incidentally, how many mass shooting incidents have involved .22s? They're really not the problem.
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Quit with the bollocks, of course a .223 is more damaging than a .22 and a 7.62 is more damaging than a .223

If you ban the .223 and larger calibres then the .22 semi-auto will be used. It isn't ******* rocket science.
A .22 can kill you just as dead as a .223.
 
cmikes said:
It's not surprising that any kind of restrictions on rifles, scary looking assault or otherwise, would have no effect on crime statistics. After all, according to the FBI crime statistics, more people are beaten to death with blunt instruments or bare hands than are killed with rifles every year. Maybe we need to ban hammers.
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But that isn't the point is it?

We are not talking about general crime here, we are talking about a specific type of crime... spree shootings, and to once again remind those who still don't get it, including you, those targets are.....

Schools and universities (e.g. Columbine 1999, Virginia Tech 2007, Sandy Hook 2012, Parklands 2018, Uvalde 2022)

Shops and malls (e.g. El Paso Walmart 2021, King Soopers supermarket 2021, Buffalo Tops 2022)

Work places (e.g. Virginia Beach 2019, Santa Clara Valley 2021, Southwest Indianapolis 2021)

Public venues such as bars and concerts (e.g. Aurora Century 16 Theatre 2012, Orlando Night Club 2016, Las Vegas 2017, Borderline Bar and Grill 2018)

Churches, mosques, synagogues and other places of worship (e.g. Charleston Church 2015, Tree of Life synagogue 2018, Sutherland Springs 2017, Poway synagogue 2019)

Uvalde 2022| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle ||
Buffalo Tops 2022| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle ||
El Paso Walmart 2021| AK-47 Semi-automatic rifle ||
King Soopers supermarket 2021|Handguns x2||
Santa Clara Valley 2021|Handguns x3||
Southwest Indianapolis 2021| SR-556 Semi-automatic rifles x 2
Poway synagogue 2019| Semi-automatic rifle ||
Virginia Beach 2019|Handguns x2||
Parklands 2018| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle
Borderline Bar and Grill 2018|Handgun
Santa Fe School|Shotgun|Handgun|
Tree of Life synagogue 2018| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle |Handguns x 3
Sutherland Springs 2017| AR-556 Semi-automatic rifle
Las Vegas 2017| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifles x14 | AR-10 Semi-automatic rifles x8 |Bolt action rifle
Orlando Night Club 2016| Semi-automatic rifle |Handgun
Charleston Church 2015|Handgun||
Aurora Century 16 Theatre 2012| Semi-automatic rifle |Handgun|Shotgun
Sandy Hook 2012| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle |Bolt-action rifle|Handgun
Virginia Tech 2007|Handgun
Columbine 1999| Semi-automatic rifle |TEC-9 Handgun|Shotguns x2

This is not all of them, but the trend remains the same for the rest. Between half and two-thirds of spree shooters use semi-automatic rifles as the weapons of choice....

Out of the 59 firearms used in those spree killings
35 were semi-automatic rifles
18 were handguns
4 were shotguns
2 were bolt-action rifles

Out of those 20 spree shootings, the shooter used semi-automatic rifles on 13 occasions.

...and its not hard to understand why. Its because the shooter can kill the maximum number of people in the shortest amount of time with the minimum amount of effort.

Weapons like the the AR-15, AR-10, M-16, AK-47 and AR-556 were not designed....

for Hunting
for Sports shooting
as a ******* toy for Rednecks to shoot road signs and wasps nests

It was designed for one, and only one use - as a weapon of war, to allow soldiers to kill enemy soldiers as fast as possible.

NOTE: AR-15, AR-10, SR-556 and AK-47 means any semi-automatic rifle made in those styles
 
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No doubt, if it becomes too hard to get a semi-auto rifle, these shooters will have to switch over to pistols or any of the other available options. Of course, banning the semi-auto's is just the start.
 
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smartcooky said:
But that isn't the point is it?

We are not talking about general crime here, we are talking about a specific type of crime... spree shootings, and to once again remind those who still don't get it, including you, those targets are.....

Schools and universities (e.g. Columbine 1999, Virginia Tech 2007, Sandy Hook 2012, Parklands 2018, Uvalde 2022)

Shops and malls (e.g. El Paso Walmart 2021, King Soopers supermarket 2021, Buffalo Tops 2022)

Work places (e.g. Virginia Beach 2019, Santa Clara Valley 2021, Southwest Indianapolis 2021)

Public venues such as bars and concerts (e.g. Aurora Century 16 Theatre 2012, Orlando Night Club 2016, Las Vegas 2017, Borderline Bar and Grill 2018)

Churches, mosques, synagogues and other places of worship (e.g. Charleston Church 2015, Tree of Life synagogue 2018, Sutherland Springs 2017, Poway synagogue 2019)

Uvalde 2022| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle ||
Buffalo Tops 2022| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle ||
El Paso Walmart 2021| AK-47 Semi-automatic rifle ||
King Soopers supermarket 2021|Handguns x2||
Santa Clara Valley 2021|Handguns x3||
Southwest Indianapolis 2021| SR-556 Semi-automatic rifles x 2
Poway synagogue 2019| Semi-automatic rifle ||
Virginia Beach 2019|Handguns x2||
Parklands 2018| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle
Borderline Bar and Grill 2018|Handgun
Santa Fe School|Shotgun|Handgun|
Tree of Life synagogue 2018| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle |Handguns x 3
Sutherland Springs 2017| AR-556 Semi-automatic rifle
Las Vegas 2017| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifles x14 | AR-10 Semi-automatic rifles x8 |Bolt action rifle
Orlando Night Club 2016| Semi-automatic rifle |Handgun
Charleston Church 2015|Handgun||
Aurora Century 16 Theatre 2012| Semi-automatic rifle |Handgun|Shotgun
Sandy Hook 2012| AR-15 Semi-automatic rifle |Bolt-action rifle|Handgun
Virginia Tech 2007|Handgun
Columbine 1999| Semi-automatic rifle |TEC-9 Handgun|Shotguns x2

This is not all of them, but the trend remains the same for the rest. Between half and two-thirds of spree shooters use semi-automatic rifle as the weapon of choice....

Out of the 59 firearms used in those spree killings
35 were semi-automatic rifles
18 were handguns
4 were shotguns
2 were bolt-action rifles

...and its not hard to understand why. Its because the shooter can kill the maximum number of people in the shortest amount of time with the minimum amount of effort. Weapons like the the AR-15, AR-10, M-16, AK-47 and AR-556 were designed for one, and only one use - to allow a shooter to kill people as fast as possible.


NOTE: AR-15, AR-10, SR-556 and AK-47 means any semi-automatic rifle made in those styles
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Yup, there's a reason why the standard battle rifle in most, if not all militaries this century is no longer bolt action.

ETA. And most of the handguns would also be semi-automatic
 
Warp12 said:
No doubt, if it becomes too hard to get a semi-auto rifle, these shooters will have to switch over to pistols or any of the other available options. Of course, banning the semi-auto's is just the start.
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Yes, Instead of killing twenty kids in a minute they will only be able to kill a few and then when they have to stop to reload someone can hit them with a chair or maybe the cops won't be ******** their pants as much and will stop them.

As for handguns, ban them all semi auto or not. There is no need for a civilian to have a handgun.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Yes, Instead of killing twenty kids in a minute they will only be able to kill a few and then when they have to stop to reload someone can hit them with a chair or maybe the cops won't be ******** their pants as much and will stop them.

As for handguns, ban them all semi auto or not. There is no need for a civilian to have a handgun.
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Will never happen in the US (banning all handguns). And the above sentiment is exactly why some people really dig their heels in when it comes to any bans or restrictions.

They know that for many liberals, banning semi-auto's, or any measure, is just a stepping stone to their real goals.
 
Warp12 said:
No doubt, if it becomes too hard to get a semi-auto rifle, these shooters will have to switch over to pistols or any of the other available options.
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You agree that if it's illegal to purchase AR-15s, they won't go and acquire them illegally? That's kinda like saying gun control works.
 
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