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Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

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Bogative said:
The race of the shooter is known and let's just say... we can now focus on the guns he used and pick apart the police reaction so we can piss on them.
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What is there to pick apart about the police reaction? Did they let children get slaughtered because they were too cowardly to do their jobs like the cops in Uvalde?
 
Stacyhs said:
I'm not sure if it's a majority, but there certainly is a significant contingent of them. I dislike and distrust black and white thinking; most thing in life are shades of gray. Some people are incapable of thinking in anything but B&W.
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Unfortunately Stacy there are a large number of really bad cops that give the overwhelming majority of good cops a really bad name.

There is also a problem with Police unions making it very difficult to fire bad cops, and qualified immunity makes it difficult for the public to take bad cops to task for the bad things they do. Unfortunately successful prosecutions of police officers like those of Michael Slager, Derek Chauvin, Amber Guyger, Mohamed Noor and Kimberly Potter are the rare exception when they should be the rule.

There is also, of course, and lot is systemic racism on the US police, escpiall in small towns.
 
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Stellafane said:
In one case (God, so many from which to choose) two young girls asked the gunman to shoot them first, in the hopes that it would give their younger classmates more time to be rescued. I'm not asking for all policemen to be prepared for that level of self-sacrifice. But even a fraction of that courage could have saved lives, and it's legitimate to ask why none of the initial respondents appeared able to summon it.
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I still question whether it was lack of courage, or indecisiveness. Neither is exactly admirable, but the two are different.
 
erlando said:
Oh no! There goes the scapegoat... Who will they blame now? The janitor for not maintaining the door properly?
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The Don said:
A scapegoat has been found - that's all that matters.

The fact that in any other country in the developed world it wouldn't have resulted in a school shooting is neither here nor there. It's not access to guns that's the problem or the lack of action from the police for over an hour, it's that some poor teacher may, or may not, have left a door open who is the real villain of the peace here. :mad:
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No one was blaming the teacher so just stop :deadhorse.
 
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Stacyhs said:
No one was blaming the teacher so just stop :deadhorse.
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Then why all the focus on the door?

No-one was blaming the teacher - yet. The "this tragedy only happened because the door was left open" narrative needs time to settle in. THEN they can focus on why the door was left open.

The crucial thing is that neither the availability of guns nor the actions (or lack thereof) of the police are blamed.
 
Meadmaker said:
I still question whether it was lack of courage, or indecisiveness. Neither is exactly admirable, but the two are different.
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These cops are sucking down 40% of the municipal budget and their ****-sipping chief supposedly received training for exactly this kind of situation within the last six months. It's either cowardice or stupidity. Either should result in the immediate firing of the chief and demotions spread around to the rest of the officers with rank on the scene. The fact that they repeatedly lied about what happened should make these corrective actions no-brainers.
 
Well.. I'm sure there were open doors.
And were te nurses and doctors armed?
If not everyone was asking for it.

I pity the US.
 
3 shootings more or less at once going down right now in the USA. Too lazy to post links, the infos will trickle into this thread eventually. USA! USA!
 
The Great Zaganza said:
How can the overwhelming majority of cops be good if they are willing to tolerate the bad ones in their midsts?
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As I said, there are systemic problems in the police with unions and immunity. If individual cops raise too much of a ruckus they put their own jobs at risk. Having good cops resign over bad cops helps no-one.

I can tell you a true story about how systemic failures in a chain of command allowed a renegade officer to be tolerated but never really punished, which ultimately led to a tragedy that killed four people, and could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds. Its off topic, so I will put it in a spoiler.

Lieutenant Colonel Arthur "Bud" Holland was a USAF bomber pilot. Over a long career of over 5,000 operational hours, which included service as a B-52 pilot in Vietnam, he built up a reputation for taking risks, flying beyond regulation limits, either flying too low, too fast, or on the edge of the plane’s, capability. Worse, he got away with repeated aerial outrages that should have permanently grounded him on several counts. His shenanigans proved doubly egregious since his position as Chief of Stan/Eval for the 92nd Bomb Wing at Fairchild AFB (manages the aircrew standardization/evaluation program) demanded he set the standards for other wing pilots. Yet none of his commanders took the imperative step of grounding him for cause, a drastic but necessary step in this case. Holland had only months left until retirement, and successive commanders hoped he would behave himself until that time. Holland's antics were considered so dangerous that a number of aircrew were unwilling to fly with him, and Lt Col McGeehan, commander of the 325th Bomb Squadron at Fairchild considered him so dangerous that he would not let anyone else fly as his copilot. Repeated complaints were made about Holland's dangerous flying, but to no avail. Those up the chain of command were not interested in doing anything about him.

Of course, the inevitable happened, and on June 24, 1994 Holland, McGeehan and two other aircrew were in a B-52 practising for an airshow, when Holland tried pulling a dangerous maneuver that grossly exceeded the aircraft's flight envelope, and it crashed on the airfield instantly killing all on board, just missing a school full of hundreds of military students.

Warning: the footage is disturbing

So why has this anything to do with bad cops? Well, I am using it as a comparison of systems, behaviours and attitudes. The military and the police have many similarities in the way they are organized and run. They have well-defined chains of command, and a strong rank hierarchy, where senior officers are obeyed, sometimes without question. At that time this happened, there was a bit of a problem in the USAF with gung-ho pilots breaking flying rules and regulations, and those up the chain of command turning a blind eye to complaints from lower ranked officers and men. This was a systemic problem that was only and finally addressed in the wake if this incident, and it resulted in the USAF, to this day, using the incident as a teaching point about the necessity of dealing with rogue pilots quickly and effectively. This whole story is available in a book called "Darker Shades of Blue: A Case Study in Failed Leadership" by Anthony T. Kern Warning: the link is a 202KB PDF

What the USAF faced then is what the Police are facing now - cops unwilling or afraid to speak out about rogue cops, and even when they do those up the chain of command are doing nothing about it. Something has to change!
 
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Wrong.
Good cops quitting, and going on record why, is exactly what would help.
It's the excuse of everyone ever enabling Evil that they need to stay to prevent things from getting worse.
But cops are not doctors or pilots in flight - western civilization doesn't end because cops don't do their work.

Instead of propping up a fundamentally rotten system, good cops should get together and come up with ways to build something better.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Wrong.
Good cops quitting, and going on record why, is exactly what would help.
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Nope, it hasn't helped in the past and I see nothing in the current climate that will make it change. In fact good cops have often been persecuted for speaking out. I think someone has already posted an example in this thread... here are some more

What Happens When Officers Blow The Whistle On Police Misconduct
Podcast with transcript you might care to read/listen to https://www.npr.org/2020/06/13/8766...fficers-blow-the-whistle-on-police-misconduct

Police Punish the ‘Good Apples’
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/what-police-departments-do-whistle-blowers/613687/

Brave Cop Speaks Out For Us; Gets Punished
https://nj1015.com/brave-cop-speaks-out-for-us-gets-punished-opinion/

Searchable records show more than 300 allegations of police misconduct reported by fellow officers
https://www.usatoday.com/storytelli...nce-police-whistleblower-misconduct-database/

Behind the Blue Wall of Silence
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...conduct-whistleblower-retaliation/8836387002/

Black Buffalo police officer fired for trying to stop chokehold
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/14/us/buffalo-officer-reinstated-trnd/index.html
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Out of everything in this thread please explain why you singled this out to doubt in such an accusatory way?
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If there is an accusatory tone, it's coming from you.

I find the story remarkable at best and I'd like to see if there is a solid source.

Now that I've explained, what's your problem?
 
I understand that it's tough, and would invite a lot of grief.

But it's a numbers game - the more actual workers quit a disfunctional job, the harder it is for the corrupt freeloaders to continue doing bugger-all right.
 
smartcooky said:
AFAIK, that teacher doesn't have a lawyer, she's dead, she was one of the victims.
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I don't think so.

In an interview with the San Antonio Express-News, an attorney who said he represents the teacher offered a different account. The attorney said the educator had called 911 to report the gunman crashing his vehicle nearby and closed the door while still on the phone.

The teacher ran inside to get her phone, called 911 and “kicked the rock away when she went back in,” attorney Don Flanary told the newspaper, apparently referring to a rock used to hold the door open. “She remembers pulling the door closed while telling 911 that he was shooting. She thought the door would lock because that door is always supposed to be locked.”
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/31/uvalde-teacher-door-closed/
 
Stacyhs said:
No one was blaming the teacher so just stop :deadhorse.
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The Texas DPS was insinuating that she was responsible. McCraw, the DPS director, made the claim that negligence allowed the murderer.entry to the school via a good propped open. He has now back-peddled on this claim.

This is one of a number of police/LEA claims that have been withdrawn, including that the murderer was wearing body armour (he wasn't, it seems police simply didn't hit him), that he exchanged fire with a school police officer outside the school (didn't happen). There's also doubt that police actually killed the murderer.

Frankly many of the "official" statements were right up there with the Republicans who claimed the killer was a trans, communist, illegal immigrant.
 
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