To the Christians here...

[ReFLeX]

I blame God for nothing. I accept full responsibility for all my words, actions, and lack thereof.

I know you think you do, but you've been displacing responsibility this whole thread. Your flesh, God's grace, whatever. Have it all to yourself, then.

 

[ceo_esq]

Ok we have to cut down on the post size... lets limit this discussion to one topic at a time so perhaps others will be more likely to join in.

Good point.

And if people worshipped Plato like they worship God, I would make the same claims against "Platoian" doctrine. People who worship Ayn Rand turn her great ideas into oppresive dogma as well. The important difference, however, between organized religion and everything else is that religious doctrine includes pledging one's self to the supreme being rather than the ideas in the doctrine.

I doubt I could find many Christians who would admit that they really like some of the ideas in Christianity and would forsake God "himself" if he tried to change them. On the other hand, if Rand came back to life and tried to change objectivism into something else, most objectivists would tell her to f--- off.

Okay. I'm not really sure what the significance of this is. The subject matter of the "doctrines" of objectivism is not Ayn Rand, whereas the doctrines of Christianity are very preoccupied with their supreme being, I agree. But I still think you are laying problems at the feet of Christian doctrine that can't reasonably be laid there.

Then why is God always referred to using the male pronouns?

(Actually, that's not always the case in theological discourse.) I suspect that it's largely for reasons of tradition. Most Christians, though, seem not to let grammatical limitations constrain theological understanding. The Catholic Catechism is pretty up front about this: "In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes."

English doesn't use gendered pronouns for non-animal entities, you know that.

I must be misunderstanding you. After all, a person is a non-animal entity (assuming you are using animal in the most common sense), and gendered pronouns are used for persons.

If female saints are as important as male ones, then why are women not allowed into the priesthood?

Well, it's only Catholics that don't. But since it's clearly true that female saints are at least as important as male ones, I suppose we must revise our thinking accordingly about whether the priesthood, for Catholics, has anything to do with how "important" you are.

Jesus' mother Mary is by far the foremost of all saints, according to Christian tradition.

I don't think you can seriously argue that worshipping female rather than male entities wouldn't greatly change the status of women throughout history.

Quite possibly, but female deities have had their cults throughout history and I'm not aware that this consistently improved the lot of women the way the rise of Christianity seems to have done.

Ok, I will pretend I am a woman who buys into Christian doctrine.

OK, I'm with you so far.

God is male.

No. We've been pretending for 5 seconds and we've already deviated from Christian doctrine!

Jesus is male.

Temporarily and sort of, but not in his capacity as God. Or so the doctrine goes.

Women cannot be part of the priesthood.

True for the Catholics, yes.

Clearly, women are substandard when it comes to leadership. And, since being a leader is (for most people) one of the greatest positions, women are substandard in general.

Yet the doctrine (which we're supposed to be buying into for the sake of argument) is absolutely clear that women are in no way substandard. Once again, the apparent conflict may arise from our possibly mistaken conception of the meaning of the priesthood.

Honestly, how could Christian women feel truely equal to men, given this doctrine?

I can't put myself fully in the shoes of either Christian or woman, but most of them seem to accept the doctrine that woman are truly equal (though obviously not identical) to men.

As to the responsibility, well... If the church is so powerful, and if they advocate true equality of women, then why are women subordinate to men in virtually every culture on Earth, INCLUDING ours?

Well, there are all kinds of things about every culture on earth, including ours, that are frankly repugnant to Christianity. Why are people failing to love their neighbors as themselves? I guess no religious institution is that powerful.

With all of their leverage, which is apparent given then current battles waging over abortion, evolution, homosexuality, and more, why aren't they advocating allowing women into the priesthood?

My understanding is that the Church believes (i) this is not within its authority to do, and (ii) it is not relevant to the equality or dignity of women. I am not deeply familiar with the specific reasons for its position.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You have produced nothing but anecdotal evidence and emotional rhetoric like the above. You are only "right" by assertion.

That, and it logically follows that if a person is religious, they obey their gods and that if their gods tell them to kill people, they will.

I'd have to say Huntster is more religious, since I'm an atheist...

It's probably why you aren't nearly as bigotted as he is.

 

[thaiboxerken]

But not today.

That doesn't mean that your god or the RCC's or your god's message won't change to kill people again. If the Pope said "God tells us to kill all homosexuals" would you?

Both.

Basically, you don't actually do any thinking for yourself, you just obey the church. The church defines your god for you and the message, you are just an obedient servant. Gotcha.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
But not today.

That doesn't mean that your god or the RCC's or your god's message won't change to kill people again. If the Pope said "God tells us to kill all homosexuals" would you?

Nope.

Basically, you don't actually do any thinking for yourself, you just obey the church.

Not really.

For example, neither the RCC or the Bible have any thoughts or references to you, and I damned sure have some thoughts regarding you.

Must be independent thought.

The church defines your god for you and the message, you are just an obedient servant. Gotcha.

Not quite.

The church, a 2,000 year old institution of theology, has lots of experience and insight in Christianity. As an independent type (both the American and Alaskan tradition), I suppose I could define God and Christianity all by my lonely, and just as I please.

However, I'm not stupid. I defer to those with more experience and study than me, and in all subjects. If their positions fit reason, I will likely accept it.

And as for being an obedient servant? I try, but I'm more so for my family, and not so much for the church. ReFLeX has pointed out that my obedience with regard to Christ's message of "turn the other cheek" is lacking significantly.

 

[ReFLeX]

That, and it logically follows that if a person is religious, they obey their gods and that if their gods tell them to kill people, they will.

Lolzors @ this. That statement is just grievously wrong. First of all, the vast majority of religious people will admit they don't know exactly what God wants. Second, not only does your premise that religious people all obey their gods not follow logically except from your strange definition of "religious", it isn't true factually. The bible is full of commandments that get disobeyed every single second. You seem to be attributing extremist characteristics to all religious people, which makes no sense.

It's probably why you aren't nearly as bigotted as he is.

I give up on the bigotry. By the way, it's one 't' in bigoted.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Having not read the preceding 12 pages, that never stops me from butting in...

I will see what the conversation is later but my 2 cents on this matter, I really can't find all the "God is Love" and stuff claimed by Christians to actually be in the Bible. There are lots of individual quotes but there are a greater number of passages about hate and smiting enemies.

What about John 3:16...
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

and

and Ephesians 2: 4-5... But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The pure gift of grace and mercy is God's unconditional love. Why do people forget that? We don't do anything to deserve salvation, it's God gift to us. All he asks is that we repent of our sin.

The weird thing to me is why is sin so blinding to people? It would seem we are all blind until we choose to accept and see it from God's perspective. The mere fact that God is faithful to forgive us is not only love, but profound.

 

[Kopji]

All he asks is that we repent of our sin.

You accept the faith of Muslims, Mormons, and Catholics then? Very broadminded of you.

 

[kurious_kathy]

You accept the faith of Muslims, Mormons, and Catholics then? Very broadminded of you.

Not quite. I don't believe in their doctrines.

 

[Kopji]

Jesus accepts them though?

It's what you said.

 

[Pauliesonne]

Not quite. I don't believe in their doctrines.

Whoever is suprised, put their hand up......

NOW!

 

[RandFan]

The pure gift of grace and mercy is God's unconditional love. Why do people forget that? We don't do anything to deserve salvation, it's God gift to us. All he asks is that we repent of our sin.

As fairy tales go it's got a lot of problems. It's interesting but the plot holes and contradictions and bizarre logic make it difficult to take seriously.

The weird thing to me is why is sin so blinding to people? It would seem we are all blind until we choose to accept and see it from God's perspective. The mere fact that God is faithful to forgive us is not only love, but profound.

Sin is an arbitrary standard. Muslims don't accept your standards.

 

[thaiboxerken]

First of all, the vast majority of religious people will admit they don't know exactly what God wants.

Yes, and the vast majority of people are only moderately religious.

Second, not only does your premise that religious people all obey their gods not follow logically except from your strange definition of "religious", it isn't true factually.

If it weren't for the "religious people obey their gods" part, you might have a point.

The bible is full of commandments that get disobeyed every single second.

Yes, by people that aren't religious enough to follow them.

You seem to be attributing extremist characteristics to all religious people, which makes no sense.

That's false, I assign extreme characteristics to the extremely religious.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Jesus accepts them though?

It's what you said.

Do they know Jesus for who he really is, they don't all have Jesus right.
The Muslims say Jesus is a prophet...uh Wrong
The Mormons say Jesus was the brother of Lucifer...uh Wrong
The Catholics say Jesus is the Son of God...uh right, but I think the Catholic Bible has added books and doctrine that isn't all the correct teachings.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Nope.

So you're simply inconsistent in your position with the church and your god.

For example, neither the RCC or the Bible have any thoughts or references to you, and I damned sure have some thoughts regarding you.

But they sure are opinionated on homosexuality, and you've quite obediently fell in line with their opinion.

Must be independent thought.

Not really.

The church, a 2,000 year old institution of theology, has lots of experience and insight in Christianity. As an independent type (both the American and Alaskan tradition), I suppose I could define God and Christianity all by my lonely, and just as I please.

The church is a 2000 year old cult that has changed it's mind about what "god" really wants quite a few times. Why is that?

However, I'm not stupid.

I doubt this statement.

And as for being an obedient servant? I try, but I'm more so for my family, and not so much for the church.

So you're only obedient when it suits you. Okay. You're not as religious as you think you are, then.

 

[RandFan]

Do they know Jesus for who he really is, they don't all have Jesus right.
The Muslims say Jesus is a prophet...uh Wrong
The Mormons say Jesus was the brother of Lucifer...uh Wrong
The Catholics say Jesus is the Son of God...uh right, but I think the Catholic Bible has added books and doctrine that isn't all the correct teachings.

Define prophet?
Define brother?
Who are you to decide what books and doctrine is correct? The bible has not always existed as it is now. The Catholic Church, in its history, has had some very gifted theologians and some of the greatest minds of their time. How is it you know more than St. Thomas? Where did you get your degree in theology?

You look like you don't know what you are talking about. You look like you are regurgitating propaganda?

 

[thaiboxerken]

So, ReFlex, is KuriousKathy bigotted or not? Is she religious or not?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Define prophet?
Define brother?
Who are you to decide what books and doctrine is correct? The bible has not always existed as it is now. The Catholic Church, in its history, has had some very gifted theologians and some of the greatest minds of their time. How is it you know more than St. Thomas? Where did you get your degree in theology?

You look like you don't know what you are talking about. You look like you are regurgitating propaganda?

Whatever RF, I'm not a theologian, just a Spirit filled believer who tests the doctrines I hear. I do study and try to pay attention to lots of the theologians that I believe are gifted by God to teach the word.

 

[RandFan]

Whatever RF, I'm not a theologian, just a Spirit filled believer who tests the doctrines I hear. I do study and try to pay attention to lots of the theologians that I believe are gifted by God to teach the word.

So, it's whatever people believe? Just believe, right?

It would sure be nice if god's plan was a bit easier to figure out.

 

[Kopji]

Do they know Jesus for who he really is, they don't all have Jesus right.
The Muslims say Jesus is a prophet...uh Wrong
The Mormons say Jesus was the brother of Lucifer...uh Wrong
The Catholics say Jesus is the Son of God...uh right, but I think the Catholic Bible has added books and doctrine that isn't all the correct teachings.

Hi Kathy,
But surely by what you posted earlier: even if you do not agree with some of the doctrines, they would have eternal life and Jesus loved them?

And how are you sure that you have Jesus right?

You are already adding things to what you said was all that was required. It sounded really nice for a minute, but the reality is that you don't really believe what you posted.

I'm going to answer some of your list though. I'm not a believer, but I know enough that there are other points of view.

Do they know Jesus for who he really is, they don't all have Jesus right.

They have died for what they believe. If it was all for a lie, that sounds like a case that truth should be a part of faith. Not just that faith has a practical purpose or makes us feel good. Martyrs at least deserve to die for something that is true.

The Muslims say Jesus is a prophet...uh Wrong

Muslims use the word prophet in a different way than Christians do. In their thinking, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, etc are all the same thing. There are prophets of law, and prophets not of law. They do not believe in the Trinity, but believe there is one God.

The technical argument against Muslims is that they do not believe in the Pauline version of Christ. To Christian theology, they believe too much and so forfeit God's grace. But do you believe too much too? If you are adding requirements to God's grace, what complaint could you have against Muslims? Just a thought.

The Mormons say Jesus was the brother of Lucifer...uh Wrong

[In a nutshell...] back before everything was decided and being created, God had two sons, Jesus and Lucifer. There was a war in heaven. A third stayed in heaven with God. Lucifer said he would force everyone else to worship God. Jesus offered to give himself as a sacrifice that people might freely choose God. Jesus won out, but Lucifer took a third to hell. [End Mormonism nutshell.]

Now you may think that's all made up and very wrong, but it hardly seems like an idea to eliminate people from Jesus's company in eternity. (And besides, I think 'Lucifer' is a mistranslation anyway...)

The Catholics say Jesus is the Son of God...uh right, but I think the Catholic Bible has added books and doctrine that isn't all the correct teachings

There was a big conference called the Council of Nicene where the inclusion of books was hammered out. They tossed out a bunch. You probably have this backward, Catholics have some books that were left in, Protestants took some books out later.

The division between protestants and Catholics always confused me a little. From the 'outside' you are almost alike. And apoligies if I badly misrepresented anyone's favorite religion.

So anyway, I'm trying to stick with the arguments, but at the heart of it is the fact that I don't think you believe what you posted.