Nosaj
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To Elohim, tell me about cherry picking in the Pali Canon
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Thanks, I just like to point out divergent beliefs in buddhism.
Do you know if the sutta of the lamps is in the pali canon, i am vaugely searching but got frustrated with Google. The lamp is lit in the same room and the wquestion is asked if it is the same falme.
I will certainly read the one you suggest.
Nosaj
Thinker
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David,
What you wrote is a little vague, but perhaps you are referring to the simile of the lamp that is found in the Milindapanha where the scholar Nagasena basically describes to King Milinda how the process of rebirth can occur without having anything passing over.
King Milinda asks Nagasena to illustrate how rebirth can take place without the passing over of anything to which Nagasena asks the king if a man were to light a lamp with the light from another lamp, does the light of the one lamp pass over to the other lamp.
In regard to being a part of the Pali Canon, this particular work is considered a quasi-canonical text as it is not part of the Thai or Sinhala edition of the Tipitika, but it is a part of the Burmese edition of the Tipitika where it is included in the Khuddaka Nikaya.
Jason
What you wrote is a little vague, but perhaps you are referring to the simile of the lamp that is found in the Milindapanha where the scholar Nagasena basically describes to King Milinda how the process of rebirth can occur without having anything passing over.
King Milinda asks Nagasena to illustrate how rebirth can take place without the passing over of anything to which Nagasena asks the king if a man were to light a lamp with the light from another lamp, does the light of the one lamp pass over to the other lamp.
In regard to being a part of the Pali Canon, this particular work is considered a quasi-canonical text as it is not part of the Thai or Sinhala edition of the Tipitika, but it is a part of the Burmese edition of the Tipitika where it is included in the Khuddaka Nikaya.
Jason
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Thanks, it was what i found as well, I recall that i had read it in Camus' Gospel of the Buddha and I found it on Google, but it did not cite the source. Thank You.
Seeing Buddhism from much further in time and much broader in domain.
Dear nosho and Elohim, I am looking at Buddhism from a higher level of examination in terms of time and domain.
We are now living in the most advanced state of human existence and knowledge, Buddhism is a worldview that appeared some 2500 years back with some men collectively identified as the Gautama, whose domain of knowledge is geometrically restricted and deficient compared to ours today.
For example the endless disputes among Buddhists themselves about the self is at present of no significance for men who would situate themselves in contemporary knowledge and insight into life and existence and the universe.
From my own part, the self is matter that has developed into an individual living thing possessed of intelligence and consciousness and unicity or singular identity.
That life in a self can be destroyed and is inevitably destroyed in the process of aging in time even without the intervention of outside forces.
That is why on the basis of our knowledge today and our skills in the control of nature, I do my critique of Buddhism from the assumption that for example a piece of ancient Buddhist writing like the Pali Canon attesting to some people’s speculations or inventions some 2500 years ago on what life is all about and how to attain whatever they thought to be the destiny of life and the universe, from the assumption namely that the Pali Canon no matter how anyone will cherry-pick it for anything that he might find of usefulness to himself, to be compared to our present knowledge of life and the universe and our own speculations of the destiny of life and the universe, to be at most of only archaeological interest, and therefore an absorbing study for a fun hobby in the mental exercise of critical thinking and the search for empirical evidence.
Yrreg
Dear nosho and Elohim, I am looking at Buddhism from a higher level of examination in terms of time and domain.
We are now living in the most advanced state of human existence and knowledge, Buddhism is a worldview that appeared some 2500 years back with some men collectively identified as the Gautama, whose domain of knowledge is geometrically restricted and deficient compared to ours today.
For example the endless disputes among Buddhists themselves about the self is at present of no significance for men who would situate themselves in contemporary knowledge and insight into life and existence and the universe.
From my own part, the self is matter that has developed into an individual living thing possessed of intelligence and consciousness and unicity or singular identity.
That life in a self can be destroyed and is inevitably destroyed in the process of aging in time even without the intervention of outside forces.
That is why on the basis of our knowledge today and our skills in the control of nature, I do my critique of Buddhism from the assumption that for example a piece of ancient Buddhist writing like the Pali Canon attesting to some people’s speculations or inventions some 2500 years ago on what life is all about and how to attain whatever they thought to be the destiny of life and the universe, from the assumption namely that the Pali Canon no matter how anyone will cherry-pick it for anything that he might find of usefulness to himself, to be compared to our present knowledge of life and the universe and our own speculations of the destiny of life and the universe, to be at most of only archaeological interest, and therefore an absorbing study for a fun hobby in the mental exercise of critical thinking and the search for empirical evidence.
Yrreg
nosho
Thinker
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- 179
I guess that means you won't be reading or commenting on the mangala sutta or any of the other passages that have been suggested.
Why did you ask for suggestions for portions of the Pali canon to read if you had no intention of reading them?
We're very fortunate people.
Just one worldview? You know better. There are many different traditions and interpretations.
For that matter, why do you say that Buddhism can only be a worldview? What makes you think it can't be a purely practical approach to living?
If I discover through experience that when I tell a lie, I tend to be less happy than when I tell the truth, and if as a result of that experience, I practice truth-telling and stop speaking falsely, does that somehow constitute a worldview?
So Buddhism never changes? There's no possibility that modern traditions might be relevant for modern times?
Ignore the disputes. Why even worry about what other people think? If you're absolutely convinced that you have an eternal soul, that's perfectly fine. Nobody's trying to take that away from you. It's your business.
That bit about the inevitability of destruction sounds like Buddhism. "All composite things are impermanent."
If that is your assumption and you're not prepared to question it, then what are you doing here?
I invite you to question your assumptions.
A proposal for a sensible way to cherry-pick in the Pali Canon.
That is a discovery of the Gautama? and Buddhists and Buddhism enthusiasts today discovered with the aid of Buddhism?
I thought I would be doing a concordance search of a word like enlightenment or nirvana or self in a critical and readable English translation of a suggested part of the Pali Canon, but I realized that it would not be necessary to know about the world as represented in the Pali Canon -- because that world of the Pali Canon is not what we know now of the world, and life, and the universe, and their destiny if any.
As I said already and I think several times, what can an ancient piece of writing tell us about anything at all which we cannot know better or more correctly today, except for its archaeological materials? What makes any worldviews in any ancient pieces of writing more important today to us for being ancient? What exactly is the value of an ancient worldview? except for being ancient and thereby entertaining to us to know how people thought in their uncritical ways two thousand plus years ago?
---------------------
In order to render cherry-picking in the Pali Canon sensible, here are my suggestions to Buddhist and non-Buddhist scholars:
At the very start, cherry-pick out all the categorical sentences in the Pali Canon, as compared to the non-categorical sentences; then set up two value systems of scoring the categorical sentences from 1 to 10, with 10 being the highest value.
The first scoring system will be concerned with the relevancy of an identified categorical sentence to a particular question in dispute, like for example, the self.
The second scoring system has to do with the credendability (the strength of a statement to be assented to on belief) of a categorical sentence.
Therefore there are two scores to every one categorical sentence: a score on the relevancy of the sentence to a specific disputed question, like for example, the self; and a score on the credendability of the sentence.
Here are five steps for doing this proposed sensible cherry-picking of any question in dispute in the Pali Canon, using the two scoring systems:
Buddhists and Buddhism enthusiasts, try this method of cherry-picking, instead of going about the business without rhyme nor reason.
Yrreg
That bit about the inevitability of destruction sounds like Buddhism. "All composite things are impermanent." -- nosho
That is a discovery of the Gautama? and Buddhists and Buddhism enthusiasts today discovered with the aid of Buddhism?
I thought I would be doing a concordance search of a word like enlightenment or nirvana or self in a critical and readable English translation of a suggested part of the Pali Canon, but I realized that it would not be necessary to know about the world as represented in the Pali Canon -- because that world of the Pali Canon is not what we know now of the world, and life, and the universe, and their destiny if any.
As I said already and I think several times, what can an ancient piece of writing tell us about anything at all which we cannot know better or more correctly today, except for its archaeological materials? What makes any worldviews in any ancient pieces of writing more important today to us for being ancient? What exactly is the value of an ancient worldview? except for being ancient and thereby entertaining to us to know how people thought in their uncritical ways two thousand plus years ago?
---------------------
In order to render cherry-picking in the Pali Canon sensible, here are my suggestions to Buddhist and non-Buddhist scholars:
At the very start, cherry-pick out all the categorical sentences in the Pali Canon, as compared to the non-categorical sentences; then set up two value systems of scoring the categorical sentences from 1 to 10, with 10 being the highest value.
The first scoring system will be concerned with the relevancy of an identified categorical sentence to a particular question in dispute, like for example, the self.
The second scoring system has to do with the credendability (the strength of a statement to be assented to on belief) of a categorical sentence.
Therefore there are two scores to every one categorical sentence: a score on the relevancy of the sentence to a specific disputed question, like for example, the self; and a score on the credendability of the sentence.
Here are five steps for doing this proposed sensible cherry-picking of any question in dispute in the Pali Canon, using the two scoring systems:
1. Get each scholar to choose the categorical sentences relevant to a question in dispute, like for example, the self, and to assign to each sentence the value score of from 1 to 10, with 10 the highest, on the strength of a sentence’s relevancy to the disputed question
2. Next, require him to score each sentence on its credendability value, from 1 to 10 as with the relevancy value.
3. Then the 100 scholars will work in unison to add together all the scores of relevancy and credendability given by each them to the individual particular sentences.
4. Rank the sentences according to their accumulated scores, from greatest scores to least scores.
5. Now, to cherry-pick in the Pali Canon for the most important texts in support of a particular disputed question as regards the interpretation most grounded on the Pali Canon, consult the ranked list of categorical sentences of relevancy to the question in dispute and of credendability strength to believers of Buddhism and to Buddhism enthusiasts.
2. Next, require him to score each sentence on its credendability value, from 1 to 10 as with the relevancy value.
3. Then the 100 scholars will work in unison to add together all the scores of relevancy and credendability given by each them to the individual particular sentences.
4. Rank the sentences according to their accumulated scores, from greatest scores to least scores.
5. Now, to cherry-pick in the Pali Canon for the most important texts in support of a particular disputed question as regards the interpretation most grounded on the Pali Canon, consult the ranked list of categorical sentences of relevancy to the question in dispute and of credendability strength to believers of Buddhism and to Buddhism enthusiasts.
Buddhists and Buddhism enthusiasts, try this method of cherry-picking, instead of going about the business without rhyme nor reason.
Yrreg
lolurigeller
Thinker
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- Aug 31, 2005
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You do realize the whole POINT of religion is having faith in claims that completely lack empirical evidence?
Although as an endless source of humour, I also like searching for empirical evidence in a religion called Christianity, too bad buddhism doesn't have fundamental truths like a magic man floating up high in the sky, and the earth being created six thousand years ago despite all scientific evidence to the contrary thanks to a book full of fun stories about incest, rape, murder, torture and sodomy.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Define higher.
Mindfulness of the consequences of choices is still valid,
Where is the critique of the eightfold path?
Funny how it is in agreement with the modern view.
And how it is in agreement with the scientific view of god as well.
You are a provincial lout Yrreg, clinging to an empty philosophy of god.
Want to debate the self again, you never proved that a transcendent self exited. Or that something permanent exists. care to have another go?
There is no self and that bothers you.
Except for your critique of the eightfold path.
Critique the eightfold path Yrreg.
Critique the eightfold path, you won't because you know it has more than arcaelogical interest.
Where is the critique of the eightfold path?
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Complexity
Philosopher
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Yrreg, a devout follower of a 'worldview' that is 2000 years old and which prefers that the masses not bother to read their 'holy' books, is criticising a 'worldview' that is 2500 years old.
Yrreg finds Buddhism lacking since its foundational works weren't written down right away. Doesn't Christianity have an issue in this area? He must love Islam.
Yrreg keeps repeating (and repeating, and repeating) that all of this is for fun for a hobby. Me thinks he doth protest too much. Yrreg hates and fears Buddhism.
Yrreg keeps using the phrase 'cherry-picking', but I don't think he really understands what it means.
Yrreg thinks that 'Western Buddhists' cherry-pick from Buddhism those tenets and practices that they find most attractive and least burdensome.
Yrreg appears to want us to contrast this with the purity of Catholic belief and practice.
He forgets, of course, that the most infamous cherry-pickers are Roman Catholic priests.
Yrreg finds Buddhism lacking since its foundational works weren't written down right away. Doesn't Christianity have an issue in this area? He must love Islam.
Yrreg keeps repeating (and repeating, and repeating) that all of this is for fun for a hobby. Me thinks he doth protest too much. Yrreg hates and fears Buddhism.
Yrreg keeps using the phrase 'cherry-picking', but I don't think he really understands what it means.
Yrreg thinks that 'Western Buddhists' cherry-pick from Buddhism those tenets and practices that they find most attractive and least burdensome.
Yrreg appears to want us to contrast this with the purity of Catholic belief and practice.
He forgets, of course, that the most infamous cherry-pickers are Roman Catholic priests.
Facts and Fictions about the Pali Canon.
I thought earlier that the Pali Canon, the source text of Theravada Buddhism, was redacted in Pali; now I have learned that Pali is a language without its own Pali script, meaning it is a spoken language without its own written characters to represent the oral sounds of the spoken speech (pardon the reduplication, for the sake of clarity).
So, in what writing script was the first ever Pali Canon redacted in written form?
The first ever written version of the Pali Canon was done in written Singhalese (Sinhalese), the language of the inhabitants of what is now called Sri Lanka (erstwhile Ceylon).
See: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=8022&view=getlastpost*
According to what I have been reading about the Pali Canon, this redaction in Singhalese characters was confected roughly toward the end of first century Common Era.
So, for more than 550 years Theravadan Buddhists were using oral traditions for their knowledge of Buddhism, i.e., the beliefs and observances propagated by one Gautama.
And what are oral traditions? Forgive me for saying it, but oral traditions are what we call anecdotal accounts or hearsay accounts. Oral traditions have for a writing slate the memory cells of humans and for a pen the tongue.
Yrreg
*It is tragic that many pages of the E-Sangha Forum are not available to non-registered readers. I used to be a registered member but got banned for “disputing and disparaging the Buddha.” If you want to read at least the first sheet of a webpage though you are not registered, try to get to a Google cached record of that page.
I thought earlier that the Pali Canon, the source text of Theravada Buddhism, was redacted in Pali; now I have learned that Pali is a language without its own Pali script, meaning it is a spoken language without its own written characters to represent the oral sounds of the spoken speech (pardon the reduplication, for the sake of clarity).
So, in what writing script was the first ever Pali Canon redacted in written form?
The first ever written version of the Pali Canon was done in written Singhalese (Sinhalese), the language of the inhabitants of what is now called Sri Lanka (erstwhile Ceylon).
See: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=8022&view=getlastpost*
Linguist Unregistered Sep 19 2004, 09:39 AM Post #1
Does anyone know how to write in Pali Script here? Same language as the Pali Canon. I'm tired of writing Pali in romanized form and need help finding out its characters. Any websites, pictures, or anything else wouldbe of great help. Thank you
cooran Contributor Sep 19 2004, 03:00 PM Post #2
Group: Global Moderator
Posts: 3,546
Joined: 9-May 04
Member No.: 2,343
Hi, linguist, all,
Pali is a spoken language, it has never been a written language. It is written in the script of the language of the user.
Most of the Pali scholars who discuss on the Internet can be found here:
Pali: Discussion list, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/
.
.
According to what I have been reading about the Pali Canon, this redaction in Singhalese characters was confected roughly toward the end of first century Common Era.
So, for more than 550 years Theravadan Buddhists were using oral traditions for their knowledge of Buddhism, i.e., the beliefs and observances propagated by one Gautama.
And what are oral traditions? Forgive me for saying it, but oral traditions are what we call anecdotal accounts or hearsay accounts. Oral traditions have for a writing slate the memory cells of humans and for a pen the tongue.
Yrreg
*It is tragic that many pages of the E-Sangha Forum are not available to non-registered readers. I used to be a registered member but got banned for “disputing and disparaging the Buddha.” If you want to read at least the first sheet of a webpage though you are not registered, try to get to a Google cached record of that page.
Complexity
Philosopher
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Hey, Yrreg - Thanks for inviting me to participate in your new thread. I'll be happy to do so.
You don't seem to be using the phrase 'cherry-picking' in this thread. That's probably for the best.
I don't think it is tragic that E-Sangha requires registration. I'm also not at all surprised that you were banned there. You do hate Buddhism, after all.
One must wonder what you mean by 'redacted'.
Irregardless, I'm enthalled by your use of 'reduplicated'.
I also love 'confected' - makes me hungry.
How much of your silly Bible was written down later?
Isn't one Gautama enough for you?
Oh, Yrreg - Any new thoughts about former Hitler Youth?
You don't seem to be using the phrase 'cherry-picking' in this thread. That's probably for the best.
I don't think it is tragic that E-Sangha requires registration. I'm also not at all surprised that you were banned there. You do hate Buddhism, after all.
One must wonder what you mean by 'redacted'.
Irregardless, I'm enthalled by your use of 'reduplicated'.
I also love 'confected' - makes me hungry.
How much of your silly Bible was written down later?
Isn't one Gautama enough for you?
Oh, Yrreg - Any new thoughts about former Hitler Youth?
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
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- Jul 22, 2006
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- 26,456
Heaven forfend that I should partipate in one of your "Bhudism is Bad" threads but I should like to point out that "Oral Tradition" should not be denigrated as you do. The Iroquois Great Law has been passed down via oral tradition for at least 400 years (and possibly as many as 1,000). It takes more than 24 hours to recite in full. If you don't have writing, you value people with good memories.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Don't forgot the both the old testament and new testament relied on oral tradition for years if not centuries before anything was actually written down. Though less so with the new testament.
I'd like to see a video of yrreg being forcibly thrown out of a Buddhist temple. That would take real effort to be thrown out of a Buddhist temple. I suspect Gerry here could pull it off though.
I'd like to see a video of yrreg being forcibly thrown out of a Buddhist temple. That would take real effort to be thrown out of a Buddhist temple. I suspect Gerry here could pull it off though.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
nescafe
Caffeinated Beverage
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Means nothing. English and Spanish both use minor modifications of the Latin alphabet. It is in fact unusual for a spoken language to have a written form that was not stolen or evolved from another language.
Who cares? Virtually all important literary, artistic, and religious texts in English are written using a slightly modified Latin alphabet, and I seem to be able to read them without knowing any Latin.
Yes, we are all aware of what an "oral tradition" implies, thankyouverymuch.
nosho
Thinker
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That seems like it would be a huge waste of time.
I get the sense that you're not really interested in what anyone else has to say. You could demonstrate that I'm wrong by actually reading anything at all that has been suggested here (at your request), and by offering your thoughts about it.
Best wishes in your studies.
A difficult passage from John Bullitt; guys here, please clear for me.
I am reading about the text of the Pali Canon and about Pali literature posterior to the Canon, which are predominantly oriented toward Theravada Buddhism.
Here is a paragraph from John Bullitt, a Pali Canon scholar, in his article in Access, talking about the authority of the post Canon literature redacted in Pali.
Please give attention to the line put in bold and in italic by me, and tell me how you understand it.
Allow me to rearrange the clauses of the passage, thus:
Does that make sense?
I will email John Bullitt to come and tell us what he means by that passage.
Yrreg
I am reading about the text of the Pali Canon and about Pali literature posterior to the Canon, which are predominantly oriented toward Theravada Buddhism.
Here is a paragraph from John Bullitt, a Pali Canon scholar, in his article in Access, talking about the authority of the post Canon literature redacted in Pali.
Please give attention to the line put in bold and in italic by me, and tell me how you understand it.
Concerns about authorship and authority recede when the texts are subjected to the same healthy skeptical attitude and empirical approach that should be familiar to every student of the suttas.
Allow me to rearrange the clauses of the passage, thus:
when the texts are subjected to the same healthy skeptical attitude and empirical approach that should be familiar to every student of the suttas Concerns about authorship and authority recede.
.
What do you guys say? Does John Bullitt mean that when we apply critical thinking and the search for empirical evidence to these texts of Pali literature post the Pali Canon, then we should not be concerned about their authorship and authority?Does that make sense?
I will email John Bullitt to come and tell us what he means by that passage.
.
It will be most educational for us all to have John Bullitt join us here.Yrreg