Titanic tourist sub missing

[Olmstead]

I do love that point in a news cycle when you can tell the news doesn't know when to stop talking about something.

Like real talk, everyone does get that 10 to 1 there's not gonna be closure on this because they ain't gonna find it? The most likely outcome is they never find this thing and "lost at sea" is where the story ends.

Luckily this story has a clear (and already overly optimistic) cut-off point. 10 hours from now this becomes a boring and half-hearted recovery of scrap metal.

 

[arthwollipot]

Luckily this story has a clear (and already overly optimistic) cut-off point. 10 hours from now this becomes a boring and half-hearted recovery of scrap metal.

...and human remains.

 

[Checkmite]

Overall I more or less agree, but I think there are circumstances where a pre-agreed rescue fee should be understood. This has occurred here in Vermont, where, after numerous rescues of skiers who have wandered off course and gotten lost, it is now general practice for ski areas to make it clear that going off the trail will result in being charged for rescue. If a mishap occurs as a result of a chosen disregard of known boundaries, it's not really an accident any more.

Okay, but who has the authority to charge you?

I know of some countries that have things like what you describe. If you ever intend to visit Ascension Island in the South Atlantic for instance, in order to clear the customs office you need to show evidence of medical insurance that includes coverage of a helicopter evacuation to South Africa if needed. Likewise, the Arctic island of Svalbard requires search-and-rescue insurance, and you're flat out not allowed to leave the main town of Spitsbergen without a rifle for protection from bears.

But those are territories with governments that can enforce their laws. Countries can't really enforce laws on private citizens in international water, even their own private citizens - it's extremely complicated and difficult at the very least. And while the US and Canadian coasts-guard are the ones most likely to respond to a problem somewhere in the northwestern Atlantic, that doesn't appear to give them the legal authority to demand things like preclearance or to charge victims for SAR.

 

[Myriad]

Luckily this story has a clear (and already overly optimistic) cut-off point. 10 hours from now this becomes a boring and half-hearted recovery of scrap metal.

No, it becomes a new lost-shipwreck mystery that will attract even more future search expeditions. (Unless it washes up somewhere first.)

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Luckily this story has a clear (and already overly optimistic) cut-off point. 10 hours from now this becomes a boring and half-hearted recovery of scrap metal.

Except for those who were close to the victims. I've been there and it wasn't boring, it was heart-breaking.

 

[Olmstead]

Here's an article by a marine historian who explains why the independent submersible industry is currently so unregulated:

https://www.curbed.com/2023/06/oceangate-titan-submarine-unregulated-tourism.html

The takeaway seems to be that countries could regulate submersibles to a similar degree as ships (which have to meet some standards to operate legally), but the framework for that simply isn't in place because this niche field hasn't spilled enough blood yet.

However, the author is a little perplexed as to how in the world the submersible company managed to get any insurance for the thing without having it classed.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I doubt the detected noises are from the five onboard the Titan.

I get the sense the five onboard Titan died quickly; on or around the time communication was lost.

My hypothesis is an implosion due to structural failure caused the (alleged) wreck of the Titan.
I'm guessing either, 1) the carbon fiber hull experienced a problematic failure, or 2) the seal(s) where the titanium alloy endcaps and dome mate with the carbon fiber hull/cylinder (where you climb into the Titan), 3) one or more of the 17 bolts used to close and tighten the endcap failed or the endcap failed to seat & seal properly, and or 4) an issue with viewing portal?

Carbon fiber hull
The carbon fiber hull may have experienced delamination?
Carbon fiber cold've experienced a fracture: possibly due to cycling over time from multiple dives at great depths & temperature ranges?

Maybe an impact with a tool or vehicle formed a crack? Crack can start small and gets big under lots of pressure, and fails quickly under x-amount of pressure?

Or maybe there was a jagged/sharp hole that was a weak point, and that uneven, jagged hole, rapidly failed?

Or some other mechanical, or chemical, bond failure?

Maybe the carbon fiber cylinder got dinged during maintenance, or during repair or upgrade, or during handling, or transporting?

Titandidn't have well-integrated systems. Pics I've seen of Titan show Titan as a hodge-podge parts stuck to and built around a carbon fiber cylinder. There are computer monitors, cameras, lighting, electric motor thrusters (fans). Stuff seems stuck onto, rather than integrated and flowing or formed into channels, angles, i-beams, stiffeners, regarding the carbon fiber cylinder. There are little or no exterior cables/hoses covers, like conduit covers, on the outside. Those exposed hoses, cables, can snag on something, or get damaged because they are naked & exposed.

I'm not the design police, but Titan has characteristics of a sophomoric design of a manned submersible. I say BS to OceanGate's quote, "Through the innovative use of modern materials." BS.

BS led to the (yet-to-be-determined?) deaths of the five onboard the OceanGate Titan.

I read [eta on the BBC News app] that the banging noises correspond to Navy/Nautical procedures.

3 minutes banging every half hour on the hour.

Last I heard the noises are ongoing.

 

[a_unique_person]

Someone mentioned the belt and braces exterior. Since something seems to have gone wrong not long after the descent started, maybe it snagged on a submerged container. They never caused havoc with other vessels. Another suspect is commercial fishing gear.


Or the drive system just failed.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I read [eta on the BBC News app] that the banging noises correspond to Navy/Nautical procedures.

3 minutes banging every half hour on the hour.

Last I heard the noises are ongoing.

Where are these 'procedures' laid down?

 

[Orphia Nay]

Where are these 'procedures' laid down?

I don't know. This is what it said on the BBC News live feed.

6:27
The 30 minutes between noises could be important clue

Tiffanie Turnbull
reporting from London
News that noises have been picked up in the hunt for a missing submersible has offered a glimmer of hope that the five men on board are alive.

Frank Owen, from the Submarine Institute of Australia, says he is confident - based on the information available - the sounds are coming from inside the vessel.

"If there was a 30-minute interval, it's very unlikely to be anything but human-related," he told the BBC.

Frank says the noises "smack of advice" coming from the fifth man inside - 77-year-old Paul-Henry Nargeolet, a former French navy diver and renowned explorer.

"He would know the protocol for trying to alert searching forces… on the hour and the half-hour, you bang like hell for three minutes," Frank added.

 

[Checkmite]

However, the author is a little perplexed as to how in the world the submersible company managed to get any insurance for the thing without having it classed.

One possibility is that they just didn't. Maybe Rush is acting as his own guarantor.

 

[Planigale]

Someone mentioned the belt and braces exterior. Since something seems to have gone wrong not long after the descent started, maybe it snagged on a submerged container. They never caused havoc with other vessels. Another suspect is commercial fishing gear.


Or the drive system just failed.

It sounds like a useful safety device to have had was an external autonomous pinger that would automatically ping from e.g. 24 hours after launch. Given an appropriate frequency it would be widely detectable by sonar and allow triangulation.

 

[Samson]

It sounds like a useful safety device to have had was an external autonomous pinger that would automatically ping from e.g. 24 hours after launch. Given an appropriate frequency it would be widely detectable by sonar and allow triangulation.

Is that an Xbox app?

 

[rjh01]

It sounds like a useful safety device to have had was an external autonomous pinger that would automatically ping from e.g. 24 hours after launch. Given an appropriate frequency it would be widely detectable by sonar and allow triangulation.

Black boxes carried by aircraft have something similar. Get one wet and they start making such noises for that reason.

 

[Arcade22]

I don't know. This is what it said on the BBC News live feed.

Pure 100% copium. The sub is almost certainly a pile of scrap on the ocean floor.

Edit: the complete and total loss of communication despite said system having redundancy strongly suggests they suffered a catastrophic hull failure.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Point of order.

YOU started a thread about the missing sub.

You did NOT start a thread about the sinking migrant ship.

Physicians heal thyself, and all that.

The thread for the migrant ship already existed, and I have been commenting in it, though there doesn't seem to be much interest generally and it's gone stale. I don't think I've reached the terminally online stage of talking to myself yet, so it's not like I can solely drive that thread. Feel free to jump in.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Circling back around to my question about who is paying for all these rescue boats:

An interesting comparison is the debate about New Hampshire's policy of sometimes charging especially negligent hikers for rescue when they get into trouble on the White Mountains. The White Mountains are the tallest peaks in New England, but they are also very close to large population centers (including Boston) and that seems to lead to a lot of casual hikers who normally only go on glorified nature walks taking on trails that they are not equipped (often literally) to handle.

Who pays for all the rescues in the White Mountains?

New Hampshire’s White Mountains attract thousands of hikers from across New England each weekend and not every journey ends well. Emergency rescuers are called to help when people are injured, lost, or even just unprepared for the conditions.

These rescues can be costly and some hikers who are deemed negligent get sent the bill. Most rescues are paid for through a hodgepodge of Fish and Game registration fees and sales of the state Hike Safe cards.

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Hikepass-41452099

So the idea that especially negligent morons might be billed for rescue efforts isn't exactly unprecedented. The policy is quite controversial though.

The other side of that is that especially negligent morons are sometimes criminally charged after being rescued, like these two idiots who got stuck rock climbing off trail:

Two men who had to be rescued after straying from marked trails while hiking in the White Mountains of New Hampshire have pleaded guilty to reckless conduct charges, officials said Tuesday.

Jason Feierstin, 22, of Lowell, and Dylan Stahley, 25, of Windsor, N.H. were charged as the result of their actions during a hike in June, according to the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department.

...


But the hiker didn’t know where he was, and couldn’t direct rescue teams to his position. The only information he could tell authorities was that he could see a highway. Tracking technology used during 911 calls pinpointed his location to the east side of Franconia Notch State Park, on a feature known as Hounds Hump, near the Eaglet Spire.

The hiker told authorities that he and a friend “were exploring,” and had not followed a trail. Instead, they started to climb a series of steep ledges. The friend kept climbing after the caller got stuck, but eventually realized he too couldn’t find a way back down the cliffs.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2022/09/07/two-hikers-plead-guilty-reckless-conduct-rescue-mission-white-mountains/#:~:text=Two%20men%20who%20had%20to,conduct%20charges%2C%20officials%20said%20Tuesday.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Circling back around to my question about who is paying for all these rescue boats:

An interesting comparison is the debate about New Hampshire's policy of sometimes charging especially negligent hikers for rescue when they get into trouble on the White Mountains. The White Mountains are the tallest peaks in New England, but they are also very close to large population centers (including Boston) and that seems to lead to a lot of casual hikers who normally only go on glorified nature walks taking on trails that they are not equipped (often literally) to handle.



https://www.concordmonitor.com/Hikepass-41452099

So the idea that especially negligent morons might be billed for rescue efforts isn't exactly unprecedented. The policy is quite controversial though.

The other side of that is that especially negligent morons are sometimes criminally charged after being rescued, like these two idiots who got stuck rock climbing off trail:



https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2022/09/07/two-hikers-plead-guilty-reckless-conduct-rescue-mission-white-mountains/#:~:text=Two%20men%20who%20had%20to,conduct%20charges%2C%20officials%20said%20Tuesday.

In the UK coastal and offshore rescue is done by the RNLI, they are a charity. They turn out regardless. They have been getting flack from right wingers for rescuing migrant boats crossing the channel.
They have 449 boats of various types from big offshore to small Ribs in 238 stations. All are on 24 hour call and apart from a couple of remote stations, crewed by volunteers
https://rnli.org/what-we-do/lifeboats-and-stations

 

[jeremyp]

In the UK coastal and offshore rescue is done by the RNLI, they are a charity. They turn out regardless. They have been getting flack from right wingers for rescuing migrant boats crossing the channel.

I haven't seen any of that.

I do know there was an attempt by our lovely government to pass a law that would have criminalised the act of rescuing illegal immigrants from a sinking boat. The RNLI made a statement in response that they were going to rescue anybody in distress no matter what their status.

I don't know what happened to the law in question. I think it might have been quietly dropped because the optics of a volunteer RNLI crew being on trial for stopping somebody from drowning would be pretty bad even for the current shower running our country.

Another thing about the RNLI is that they don't judge you. They rescue people in danger and that's it. They don't admonish you, they don't call you stupid and they don't present you with a bill.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

"We found the sub!"
"Oh that's good!"
"It's blocking the Suez."
"....."
"Don't ask me."

"We found the sub!"
"Oh that's good!"
"It's empty."
"....."
[Twilight Zone theme]