Tissue's Destroy the septic tank?

[Verde]

Tissues, etc

The fibers in paper are cellulose, the same as in a "high fiber" grain products. So I wouldn't think the fibers are the problem. I know that glossy paper has clay in it, so don't wipe your self with Time magazine. Lots of papers use hide glue, which is water soluble. I suspect that all household 'tissues' are water soluble, in time. And don't forget all the soap in the sewer too, from dishs and laundry. I wonder where we could find comparisons of recipes for the binders used in different papers? Or do you think Scott would want you to know that their 3 types of household tissues are interchangable? Nose wipe, butt wipe, table wipe...why buy three when they are all the same?

Not wishing to see a nit go unpicked, the paper fibers don't technically dissolve. At least, I hope you don't have such a solvent in your septic tank! Most forms of paper are largely held together by simple hydrogen bonding, and when immersed in water for long enough will simply fall apart.

There are very few fillers in tissue, and there is only a small amount of surface glue used in the crepeing process. Any dyes used would also be inert. There is nothing in the sheet that would have any adverse affect on a septic system, so advertising a brand as being 'septic safe' is quite true, but then they all are.

Wadding up a bunch of kitchen towel and flushing it is likely to cause problems, but that is nothing to do with the septic system. Flush a Sears catalog may well have the same effect.

 

[pgwenthold]

Not wishing to see a nit go unpicked, the paper fibers don't technically dissolve. At least, I hope you don't have such a solvent in your septic tank! Most forms of paper are largely held together by simple hydrogen bonding, and when immersed in water for long enough will simply fall apart.

Fall apart into what? How big are the monomers?

 

[Ririon]

Not wishing to see a nit go unpicked, <picks nits>

Discuss any obscure topic and a lurker with the exact technical expertise you need will come out of hiding. (If there aren't already 15 people with a lifetime experience on the topic already posting...) You've got to love this forum

And, of course:
Verde

 

[Verde]

Fall apart into what? How big are the monomers?

Into individual fibers. I'm not sure of the relevance of the term monomer in this context, but the fiber length for most tissue grades is around 2 - 3mm.

Note that they are not nice straight little fibers, but considerably roughed up, or frayed, to provide more bonding sites.

From one of my Pulp & Paper textbooks:
"Interfiber cohesion in a sheet of paper is attributed to the hydroxyl groups of the carbohydrates sharing a hydrogen atom in adjacent fibers"

 

[Verde]

And, of course:
Verde

Thanks. I've been following Swift for several years, but have only been lurking on the Fora for a few months. Looks like a great place to be, and I hope I can find some little way to contribute.

 

[casebro]

I remember they used to sell enzymes for septic systems. The right enzymes could break the long chains into monomers. Yeast won't do it, Beano might. Cellulose digestion is what cows have seven stomachs for- takes lots of enzymes, made by intestinal fauna, a long time. Give it a couple years, they are working on enzymatic conversion of cellulose to alcohol. Then they will pass a new law, because as we all know " When (rule 8) comes of value, the poor will be born without anus' "

 

[jj]

No, it doesn't hurt at all, which means that you should not worry about putting yeast down the septic tank.

But it doesn't HELP, either, which is the myth at hand ("you _should_ add yeast to your septic tank.") Yeast is not needed in a septic system.

I've seen one rather gross example where something approximating lager yeast got established in the septic tank for a ski lodge.

That was NOT good. It didn't damage the tank or the system, but it had to be pumped, much bleach poured in, and pumped, and so on...

Eww.

 

[Amapola]

Cellulose digestion is what cows have seven stomachs for- takes lots of enzymes, made by intestinal fauna, a long time.

Uhhh..... since people seem to be picking nits here, cows actually have 4 stomachs, not 7. Source

 

[bruto]

I remember they used to sell enzymes for septic systems. The right enzymes could break the long chains into monomers. Yeast won't do it, Beano might. Cellulose digestion is what cows have seven stomachs for- takes lots of enzymes, made by intestinal fauna, a long time. Give it a couple years, they are working on enzymatic conversion of cellulose to alcohol. Then they will pass a new law, because as we all know " When (rule 8) comes of value, the poor will be born without anus' "

thread drift.... reminds me of another old proverb: If the rich could hire somebody to die for them, the poor could make a good living.

 

[pgwenthold]

Into individual fibers.

Fibers of what? Cellulose?

You have to remember, you have people here who are chemists and think about materials from a chemistry perspective.

The monomer question is relevent because the chemical structure of what the paper breaks down to is important. 2-3 mm pieces are still much larger than the molecular level, no (unless they are strands of 10^5 or 10^6 saccharides, I guess, which could happen). If it is cellulose (which would be reasonable since you call them fibers), then the question is what is the solubility of celloluse in water. Small starch's are generally highly soluble in water (because of all the hydrogen bonding sites), but bulk material is not so much.

 

[casebro]

Yup, there's soluble fiber, and insoluble fiber. Cellulose is considered insoluble. Ever noticed that cotton does not disolve when wet?

 

[Verde]

Yup, there's soluble fiber, and insoluble fiber. Cellulose is considered insoluble. Ever noticed that cotton does not disolve when wet?

Wood polysaccharides will indeed include both soluble and insoluble forms, however all the soluble components will be removed during the pulping process.

For pgwenthold; I only dabble in chemistry when I absolutely have to, so my answers may not be as rigorous as some here would like. I accept that as a function of the diverse nature of this group.
It would appear that the degree of polymerization of wood cellulose is around 10,000. I don't see a reference right now as to how that relates to the overall fiber length. The polymer chain may be broken up in a strongly acidic environment, but is very resistant to neutral and alkali solutions. I would suspect that the pH in a septic tank would be slightly on the acid side, but I doubt it's low enough to hydrolyze the linkages.
If it is really an issue, I could take a sample from my own tank and test it, but needless to say I would really prefer not to do that!

 

[pgwenthold]

Yup, there's soluble fiber, and insoluble fiber. Cellulose is considered insoluble. Ever noticed that cotton does not disolve when wet?

But those are long fibers. Verde is talking about degraded fibers, where intermoleculer interactions have been broken.

If the saccharide length is 10000 as noted, then it is probably still insoluble at that point, but it is not at all obvious that it must be. Comparison to bulk cotton are not relevent.

 

[pgwenthold]

Wood polysaccharides will indeed include both soluble and insoluble forms, however all the soluble components will be removed during the pulping process.

For pgwenthold; I only dabble in chemistry when I absolutely have to, so my answers may not be as rigorous as some here would like. I accept that as a function of the diverse nature of this group.
It would appear that the degree of polymerization of wood cellulose is around 10,000. I don't see a reference right now as to how that relates to the overall fiber length.

Just an estimate, using a monsaccharide diameter of about 0.5 nm, that would make a chain length of about 5 microns (cellulose is essentially linear - that's what gives it fibers)

The polymer chain may be broken up in a strongly acidic environment, but is very resistant to neutral and alkali solutions. I would suspect that the pH in a septic tank would be slightly on the acid side, but I doubt it's low enough to hydrolyze the linkages.
If it is really an issue, I could take a sample from my own tank and test it, but needless to say I would really prefer not to do that!

My guess is that the septic environment is more on the basic side, anyway (assuming urea as a non-trivial component)

 

[Goshawk]

Discussions of polysaccharides, cellulose, and the biochemistry of sewage aside, every septic tank website you can Google up will tell you the same thing: do not flush facial tissues.

Sample cite:

Don't deposit coffee grounds, cooking fats, wet-strength towels, disposable diapers, facial tissues, cigarette butts, and other non-decomposable materials into the house sewer. These materials won't decompose and will fill the septic tank and plug the system.

And one more time in slow motion:

Never flush cat litter, disposable diapers, sanitary napkins, tampons, paper towels, facial tissues, coffee grounds, or cigarette butts and filters. They'll clog your septic tank in less time than you might imagine.

You need to distinguish between toilet paper and facial tissues ("Kleenex"). It's possible to obtain special septic-tank-friendly fast-dissolving toilet paper, but I have yet to see any brands of facial tissues marketed as "septic tank safe".

And, anyway, you're not supposed to flush facial tissues down your own big-city municipal plumbing, for the very same reason: Kleenex will not dissolve like toilet paper will, and will wad up and clog your toilet, which is a Bad Thing.

 

[Verde]

My guess is that the septic environment is more on the basic side, anyway (assuming urea as a non-trivial component)

I seem to have some support here from
w w w. lanfaxlabs. com. au/papers/P55-03-temporal.PDF

Sect. 3.2, Table 1: Avg pH 6.7 - 7.2.

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OK, we've probably lost most of the viewers by now. My first few posts and I'm already up to my armpits in carp. But, I _have_ done that literally, with homes on three continents having septic systems, and the problems that they entail.

Perhaps I should just move over to a more tasteful thread.

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[pgwenthold]

OK, we've probably lost most of the viewers by now

Dude, you are in the science forum. Don't be afraid to talk about the science. People read this forum because they are _interested_ in the science.

There's a huge diversity of folks who read here. Believe me, a lot of them know what we are talking about (and I count on the fact that there are some who know more about it than I do).

And if they don't know, they can always ask (and they do)

 

[casebro]

Discussions of polysaccharides, cellulose, and the biochemistry of sewage aside, every septic tank website you can Google up will tell you the same thing: do not flush facial tissues.

Sample cite:

And one more time in slow motion:

You need to distinguish between toilet paper and facial tissues ("Kleenex"). It's possible to obtain special septic-tank-friendly fast-dissolving toilet paper, but I have yet to see any brands of facial tissues marketed as "septic tank safe".

And, anyway, you're not supposed to flush facial tissues down your own big-city municipal plumbing, for the very same reason: Kleenex will not dissolve like toilet paper will, and will wad up and clog your toilet, which is a Bad Thing.

All myths without any scientific back up.

Now, If the cites said something like " facial tissues use epoxy as a binder, where toilet tissues us a water soluble binder that allows faster dissolution...." But all the expertise here seems to say that there are no binders used. So there ought to be no difference between the two tissues.

 

[Verde]

You need to distinguish between toilet paper and facial tissues ("Kleenex"). It's possible to obtain special septic-tank-friendly fast-dissolving toilet paper, but I have yet to see any brands of facial tissues marketed as "septic tank safe".

As mentioned earlier, the slogan 'septic safe' is true but meaningless. Also, there is little structural difference between toilet and facial tissues. There is a balance of properties between bulk, strength, absorbancy and softness and these are determined by the type of fiber being used and the operating conditions on the paper machine. It is very common for both products to be made on the same machine. Kitchen towel is a different kind of beast.
Where the products will diverge is in the converting stage, which takes the big rolls from the paper machine and turns them into small rolls or nicely folded sheets, etc. During this stage there may well be surface treatments applied, such as synthetic lanolin or mild perfumes. These do not affect the structure of the sheet, so will not change the process of disintegration in the septic tank. It is possible that some of the surface treatments may be unfriendly to the bacteria in the tank, and that might be the origin of some of these warnings, but I suspect that they are so mild that there would not be a serious reaction. However, that takes us into the field of biochemistry, etc, and I know very little about that.

And, anyway, you're not supposed to flush facial tissues down your own big-city municipal plumbing, for the very same reason: Kleenex will not dissolve like toilet paper will, and will wad up and clog your toilet, which is a Bad Thing.

Well, there is a big difference between clogging up a pipe and damaging the operation of a septic system. A quick Roto-rooter job is a lot easier than digging up a leach field.

Oh, and neither Kleenex nor Charmin will 'dissolve', but both will degrade in essentially the same way.

 

[Verde]

Dude, you are in the science forum. Don't be afraid to talk about the science. People read this forum because they are _interested_ in the science.

Thanks. I didn't actually realise which forum I was in. I usually come into the threads via the entry page that shows the latest posts, and unless I look at the category before entering it isn't clear to me where I am inserting my foot.
Actually, now that I am typing I do see the address up top of the page. I didn't notice that before.
Lots to learn!