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Time to kick Iran

You have problably not followed the dialogue between Ziggurat and me.
Not particularly. Ever since you accused me of excusing genocides, then you completely failed (thrice) to back up your accusation, I've never bothered following your dialogues too closely. I figure it's simply not worth it. Nothing I've ever seen of yours has indicated to me enough value to start following it again.
I was exactly pointing out that he was criticizing Russia ( for being ambitious )
Congrats again on the tu quoque. But comparing Truman with Stalin or Ivan The Terrible was a bit over the top. Never mind, we all know that the USA, France and Russia are all ambitious nations.

Carry on.
 
Not particularly. Ever since you accused me of excusing genocides, then you completely failed (thrice) to back up your accusation, I've never bothered following your dialogues too closely. I figure it's simply not worth it. Nothing I've ever seen of yours has indicated to me enough value to start following it again.

Well, if I remember well ( it was some time ago ), I have well retracted my statement ( at least twice, and soon after I have made it ).
If you want, I can retract it for the third time here.

Congrats again on the tu quoque. But comparing Truman with Stalin or Ivan The Terrible was a bit over the top. Never mind, we all know that the USA, France and Russia are all ambitious nations.
Carry on.

I was not comparing Stalin with Truman.
We were discussing about ambitious nations.
Ziggurat said ( criticizing, in my opinion ) Russia as an ambitious nation.
I was pointing out that America, too, has quite an history of being ambitious.
 
Kumiss.
_____

See post just above yours.

The post-rock band from Southampton?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumiss

As, if you are speaking about Stalin ( to be precise, that was not Russia, but the USSR ), we can start to discuss of the crimes against the Native Americans in the 19th century?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#Removal_and_reservations

BTW.
I have no interest to make comparisons between crimes among different nations, and it may well be that the crimes of Stalin were ( much ) worse to the crimes that any American president has ever done.

Just pointing out that it has little sense to criticize Russia for being " ambitious ", if your nation is ambitious too..
 
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I was exactly pointing out that he was criticizing Russia ( for being ambitious ),

Not so. Perhaps you consider being ambitious to be a negative quality, but I do not. I've got other criticisms of Russia, but they aren't relevant to this thread, and I haven't voiced them here.

Chavez ( for being an aspiring dictator ),

Damned straight. You need not share my evaluation of Chavez (and apparently you don't), but given that this is my evaluation of him, why on earth shouldn't I criticize Chavez?

and maybe others, without considering the situation in his own country.

On what basis do you conclude that I haven't considered the situation in my own country? Is it merely because I haven't come to the same conclusions as you have? Because it sure looks like that's the only grounds on which you're objecting. You've got absolutely no clue as to how much I think about the situation in the US, and probably very little idea about what conclusions I've reached. Though that's never stopped you from concluding (frequently incorrectly) what you think must be my positions.
 
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Not so. Perhaps you consider being ambitious to be a negative quality, but I do not. I've got other criticisms of Russia, but they aren't relevant to this thread, and I haven't voiced them here.

You wrote in post 1082:
Russia has a long history of throwing its weight in its neighborhood, going back well before the USSR even. They are an ambitious nation, always have been.
Looks like a criticism to me

Damned straight. You need not share my evaluation of Chavez (and apparently you don't), but given that this is my evaluation of him, why on earth shouldn't I criticize Chavez?

As you wrote that he is an " aspiring dictator ".
While, Chavez, while a populist leader, has never said that he wants or aspire to take away free elections, so far.
Also, I invited you to look at what your own president is doing, before criticizing foreign leaders.
Chavez has not invaded Iraq, so far..

On what basis do you conclude that I haven't considered the situation in my own country? Is it merely because I haven't come to the same conclusions as you have? Because it sure looks like that's the only grounds on which you're objecting. You've got absolutely no clue as to how much I think about the situation in the US, and probably very little idea about what conclusions I've reached. Though that's never stopped you from concluding (frequently incorrectly) what you think must be my positions.

I have replied to this in the quote above.
 
U.S. Officials Begin Crafting Iran Bombing Plan

Wednesday, September 12, 2007

WASHINGTON — A recent decision by German officials to withhold support for any new sanctions against Iran has pushed a broad spectrum of officials in Washington to develop potential scenarios for a military attack on the Islamic regime, FOX News confirmed Tuesday.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296450,00.html
 
Paranoid much???
More related articles concerning plans to attack Iran...

Report: US develops war plan against Iran
[SIZE=-1]Xinhua, China - 18 hours ago[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]12 (Xinhua) -- Officials in Washington are developing potential scenarios for a military strike against Iran, local media reported Wednesday. ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Report: US crafting Iran bombing plan [SIZE=-1]Ynetnews[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]US Officials Begin Crafting Iran Bombing Plan [SIZE=-1]FOX News[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]US Wants New UN Sanctions on Iran [SIZE=-1]FOX News[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]all 107 news articles »[/SIZE]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h-baeNiT1IsmlqGWP0ZJWQIk_Wqg
Israel urgers tougher sanctions on Iran
[SIZE=-1]AFP - 3 hours ago[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]JERUSALEM (AFP) — Israel called on Thursday for a toughening of sanctions on its arch-foe Iran and urged private companies around the world to stop doing ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Israel's foreign minister calls for tougher UN sanctions against Iran [SIZE=-1]International Herald Tribune[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]US to push for broadened sanctions against Iran [SIZE=-1]Euronews.net[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]'German opposition to sanctions may spur US attack on Iran' [SIZE=-1]Jerusalem Post[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/SIZE]
 
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You wrote in post 1082:
Russia has a long history of throwing its weight in its neighborhood, going back well before the USSR even. They are an ambitious nation, always have been.
Looks like a criticism to me

Well it isn't. You've been told that repeatedly. It's merely an observation, and one which you have not in any way contested. What, precisely, is wrong with making factual observations? On what basis is that objectionable? The only people I know who object to factual observations on any grounds other than them being factually incorrect (which is not your objection) are ideologues.

As you wrote that he is an " aspiring dictator ".
While, Chavez, while a populist leader, has never said that he wants or aspire to take away free elections, so far.

Why would he say it, even if he wants to? He wouldn't, so the lack of him saying so doesn't indicate anything. Besides which, you are again trying to contest my evaluation of Chavez, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether or not I should be criticising him, given that I do have a different evaluation of him than you. You have given me absolutely no grounds on which to refrain from criticism given my evaluation. Your entire argument essentially boils down to (and this is a paraphrase, not a quote) 'because I object to Bush, you're not allowed to object to Chavez'.

Also, I invited you to look at what your own president is doing, before criticizing foreign leaders.

And once again, you are assuming that because I have not come to the same conclusions you have, I must not have done such an evaluation. But you are wrong, again. This is the second time I've corrected you, and you repeating your statement a third time will not make it any less false. But I expect you will repeat it yet again anyways, with no more evidence or support than the first two times.

I have replied to this in the quote above.

No, you didn't. All you did is repeat an accusation. That's not a reply.
 
Paranoid much?
"Paranoid"?
  • Iran says Israel should be destroyed.
  • Ahmadinejad wants an apocalyptic war to bring back the Mahdi.
  • Iran is developing arms grade nuclear fuel.
"Paranoid"? Somehow I don't think you know what that word means.
 
"Paranoid"?
  • Iran says Israel should be destroyed.
  • Ahmadinejad wants an apocalyptic war to bring back the Mahdi.
  • Iran is developing arms grade nuclear fuel.
"Paranoid"? Somehow I don't think you know what that word means.

I know what it means. It goes something like this:

"Jews are evil. They steal our Jobs, they ruin our markets, they
are all rich and they want to destroy our German society".

"Sounds plausible - what shall we do?"

"Don't know - let's kill them all."

"Mhmmkay".
 
I know what it means. It goes something like this:
Of course Godwin had the best response.

In any event, how do Jewish citizens equate to a regime that has declared that Israel should be destroyed and is developing nuclear grade fuel?

Don't you think you've got your comparisons cross wired? Ahmadinejad wants to do destroy Jews and Hitler wanted to destroy Jews. Good doublethink Oliver.

It's too bad the Jews didn't view Hitler the way many are now viewing Ahmadinejad. A nut case who has targeted a group of people for destruction.

Maybe we learned something?
 
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Of course Godwin had the best response.

In any event, how do Jewish citizens equate to a regime that has declared that Israel should be destroyed and is developing nuclear grade fuel?

Don't you think you've got your comparisons cross wired? Ahmadinejad want to do destroy Jews and Hitler wanted to destroy Jews. Good doublethink Oliver.

It's too bad the Jews didn't view Hitler the way many are viewing Ahmadinejad.

Maybe we learned something?


Maybe you take the time to be skeptical about the Scapegoats
the Government proclaims and listen to the more calm, own words
of this guy:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2007/09/12/sot.ahmadinegad.itn.itn

Why? Because it doesn't help to cry Wolf in the same way we're
all familiar with from the run-up to the last Scapegoat-Threat:

"OMG!!1! Death! Israel destroyed! Nuclear Weapons! Attack US!
Mushroom clouds!11!!!eleven1OMG111!"

This may work for some nutty patriots - but the rest of the world
doesn't believe this crap anymore.
 
Forgive me my obtuse ignorance, but...

Isn't it a standard part of jobs of strategists and millitary folks to probe possible threats (even if theoretical) and make plans on how to act if the situation requires?

So, USA has a plan to bomb Iran. So what? Frankly, I would be surprised it it had no plans at all... And I bet there are plans for other countries such as North Korea, Syria and Libya, among others. Why not, for example, have the coordinates of Tamil Tigers' bases ready to be loaded in to some Tomahawks' guidance systems, just in case they decide to do something unwise?

I also doubt that other countries such as say, UK, France and Russia, have no similar plans.

So, news about plans to bomb Iran. Besides being an obvious propaganda movment... So what?
 
Maybe you take the time to be skeptical about the Scapegoats the Government proclaims and listen to the more calm, own words of this guy:
Oh, he's calm... well, damn, that proves... well, something, right?

However, his hard-line rhetoric resurfaced when Ahmadinejad said Israel "cannot continue its life."

"Today, we should define our economic, cultural and political policies based on the policy of Imam Mahdi's return. We should avoid copying the West's policies and systems,

I have his words. He is needlessly developing nuclear grade fuel.
 
Forgive me my obtuse ignorance, but...

Isn't it a standard part of jobs of strategists and millitary folks to probe possible threats (even if theoretical) and make plans on how to act if the situation requires?

So, USA has a plan to bomb Iran. So what? Frankly, I would be surprised it it had no plans at all... And I bet there are plans for other countries such as North Korea, Syria and Libya, among others. Why not, for example, have the coordinates of Tamil Tigers' bases ready to be loaded in to some Tomahawks' guidance systems, just in case they decide to do something unwise?

I also doubt that other countries such as say, UK, France and Russia, have no similar plans.

So, news about plans to bomb Iran. Besides being an obvious propaganda movment... So what?


Of course Countries have such plans to estimate probable threats.
In this case we're talking about prophylactic interventions without
knowing if it's a threat or not.

Fact is that Iraq was no threat whatsoever for the United States,
and the same is true for the US concerning Iran. Everything else
is Propaganda - as being seen today on Fox:

(Video at the bottom)
http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Fox_US_makes_Iran_bombing_plan_0912.html
 
Of course Countries have such plans to estimate probable threats.

In this case we're talking about prophylactic interventions without
knowing if it's a threat or not.

Ahmadinejad has said that Israel should be destroyed.
Iran, a nation sitting on vast energy resources, is developing weapon grade nuclear fuel.

Oh, and BTW, much of the rest of the world DOES care. You don't speak for everyone.
 
The point is not if Iraq was or not a potential threat...

The point is if Iran is or not a threat. The way I see it, for USA interests, it is a plausible and potential threat, just like say, North Korea.

If there is a potential threat, the threatened will (unless if very unwise) make plans to deal with it. In this case, bombing. Note that letting word of bombing plans seep out is clearly part of a strategy.

One can discuss if the threat is real or not and how dangerous it is. But the "OMG! They made bombing plans!" line is quite moot...
 

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