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Time to kick Iran

Hi Oliver.
Agreed with what you say..
You buy the propaganda about America? You believe the caricature painted by our opponents?

I know you are not going to buy this Matteo but America is not monolithic and no POV represents America. I know that's discomforting for shallow thinking but it's true.

Anyway, this does NOT mean that OBL is a nice guy, right?
:) Be patient my friend. You will be a true believer. Keep reading Oliver's and Ion's posts and "learn" from them. You too can hate America and learn to blame America for all of the evils of this world.
 
You buy the propaganda about America? You believe the caricature painted by our opponents?

I know you are not going to buy this Matteo but America is not monolithic and no POV represents America. I know that's discomforting for shallow thinking but it's true.

Well, the fact that it was legal, until recently, to assassinate a foreign leader is more or less a fact, is not it?

:) Be patient my friend. You will be a true believer. Keep reading Oliver's and Ion's posts and "learn" from them. You too can hate America and learn to blame America for all of the evils of this world.

I would like to know their opinion about the video, where Mr. A says " death to Israel " in front of a large crowd..
 
Yes, wrong for all of the reasons I have stated again and again. Imperialism is control by force. We can't do it. We just can't. At best we can hope to do what we did in German and Japan. Influence them and start democacies.

Ranting on and on that America is imperialistic in the face of evidence to the contrary is just a big waste of time. It's not going anywhere.
  • America has NOT acted like the former Soviet Union.
  • America could have acted like the former Soveit Union at one time.
  • Our goal is to start democracies like we did in Germany and Japan.
  • Sometimes we suck at it.


Okay, I see that we're on completely different levels. So here is my simple question to understand your denial:

Helping to overthrow the Iranian government was for what reason other than imperialism? :confused:

Hi Oliver.
Agreed with what you say..

Anyway, this does NOT mean that OBL is a nice guy, right?


Of course OBL is not a nice guy. But at least he's not making crap up to get his fellow nuts support. So his anger against the west makes sense to some degree. The Terroists-Axis-of-Evil-Propaganda doesn't.



Thank you for the link, Matteo. I will look into it now. :)
 


Quite frankly. I understand what the anger on both sides is about - and I understand why they shout "Death for Israel", even if this is a stupid argument for politicians to promote. And it also somehow reminded me to the "Axis of Evildoers" speech from Gee-DoubleWoo - even if he formulated it more wisely. (I see you, Pardalis :D)
 
Quite frankly. I understand what the anger on both sides is about - and I understand why they shout "Death for Israel", even if this is a stupid argument for politicians to promote. And it also somehow reminded me to the "Axis of Evildoers" speech from Gee-DoubleWoo - even if he formulated it more wisely. (I see you, Pardalis :D)

Oliver, do you have a single brain cell left? It's just "a stupid argument for politicians to promote"? Don't you think there's a small difference between labeling countries as enemies and proclaiming to wipe out an entire country?
 
Oliver, do you have a single brain cell left? It's just "a stupid argument for politicians to promote"? Don't you think there's a small difference between labeling countries as enemies and proclaiming to wipe out an entire country?


Yes, I see the difference. But since we are talking about different cultures here, both representations make sense in their own way if I include these differences. And yes, I know you are offended because you don't understand-/agree with -what I just said.
 
Yes, I see the difference. But since we are talking about different cultures here, both representations make sense in their own way if I include these differences. And yes, I know you are offended because you don't understand-/agree with -what I just said.

I understand perfectly well. You subscribe to cultural relativism, I don't. The fact that human behavior can in part be explained by their environment doesn't mean their behavior is right or helpful in any way. What it does mean is that we have to take culture into account for Western foreign policies to be effective. But that's another topic.

If you want to focus on the importance of culture, Steven Dutch's essay The World's Most Toxic Value System might be an interesting read.
 
And yes, I know you are offended because you don't understand-/agree with -what I just said.

RANT! By the way, I'm not offended but pissed. I'm pissed by your obnoxious insistence to run a bulldozer over any differences in stance or behavior of the factions you like to equate. The world isn't flat but bumpy, with lots of mountains here and there. It's actually rather unlikely that two quarreling factions are always equally guilty, or we could just get rid of civil lawsuits altogether.
 
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I understand perfectly well. You subscribe to cultural relativism, I don't. The fact that human behavior can in part be explained by their environment doesn't mean their behavior is right or helpful in any way. What it does mean is that we have to take culture into account for Western foreign policies to be effective. But that's another topic.

If you want to focus on the importance of culture, Steven Dutch's essay The World's Most Toxic Value System might be an interesting read.

RANT! By the way, I'm not offended but pissed. I'm pissed by your obnoxious insistence to run a bulldozer over any differences in stance or behavior of the factions you like to equate. The world isn't flat but bumpy, with lots of mountains here and there. It's actually rather unlikely that two quarreling factions are always equally guilty, or we could just get rid of civil lawsuits altogether.


Well, let me simply put is this way for you to understand:

What is the more dangerous society:

1. A society that says "Death to another country", "Cut their heads off", "Eat little Children" - and does nothing concerning what they say.

or...

2. A society that formally says: "FREEDOM!", "PIECE", DEMOCRACY!"
- and goes to war, starts covert operations and invades countries that are no threat.

I know you don't like my example. But that's exactly my point here:
"Reden kann man viel - letztendlich zählen die Taten."

(Translation: "One can talk all day long - the actions are what finally counts.")
 
Oliver, my cat is pissed too. Can you see that reproachful expression in his eyes?

1768946b73695561c7.jpg


:hit: :bgrin:
 
Of course OBL is not a nice guy. But at least he's not making crap up to get his fellow nuts support. So his anger against the west makes sense to some degree. The Terroists-Axis-of-Evil-Propaganda doesn't.


Islam is made up.

The claim that Osama's idea of utopia would actually in any way benefit or improve the lives of 99% of the people is also a lie.
 
Islam is made up.

The claim that Osama's idea of utopia would actually in any way benefit or improve the lives of 99% of the people is also a lie.


I never said that he has success. I said that I guess it's his honest intention to fight "Goliath" - no matter if successfully or not.

In contrast, the "Evil-States" are laughable third-world countries with no military resistance whatsoever. To say they are a threat for world peace is a flat-out lie ... or like "Bullyani" and Romny put it in the last presidential debates: "The biggest threat of the entire century."

Yeah, sure. :boggled: :rolleyes:
 
I never said that he has success. I said that I guess it's his honest intention to fight "Goliath" - no matter if successfully or not.


His honest intention is to kick everyone else out so he and his cronies can rule instead. Like other people have pointed out to you, Osama is not fighting for anyone's freedom, he is fighting for his own personal interests.


In contrast, the "Evil-States" are laughable third-world countries with no military resistance whatsoever. To say they are a threat for world peace is a flat-out lie


Right now they're not a threat to anyone but their own people and the neighboring nations, and I've never claimed otherwise. If they keep developing in the same direction, I don't know, they certainly could cause a large conflict in the future. Especially if they decide to take on Israel.

The outcome of that might not be pretty.
 
1. A society that says "Death to another country", "Cut their heads off", "Eat little Children" - and does nothing concerning what they say.

Sure. That's an accurate description of Iran. Their sponsorship of Hezbollah? Pay no attention to that.

2. A society that formally says: "FREEDOM!", "PIECE", DEMOCRACY!"

Piece of what?
 
His honest intention is to kick everyone else out so he and his cronies can rule instead. Like other people have pointed out to you, Osama is not fighting for anyone's freedom, he is fighting for his own personal interests.


Then we agree that every other intervention instead focusing on Al Qaida is and was a lie, don't we?

Right now they're not a threat to anyone but their own people and the neighboring nations, and I've never claimed otherwise. If they keep developing in the same direction, I don't know, they certainly could cause a large conflict in the future. Especially if they decide to take on Israel.

The outcome of that might not be pretty.



No. Until they attack their Neighbors they're nothing but a theoretical threat. And yes, I understand the ones who try to portray it otherwise - but they are basically saying: "The average criminal in the US is 25, male and black. Sorry, we have to preemptively put you into prison because you're 25, male and black." :boggled:
 
1. A society that says "Death to another country", "Cut their heads off", "Eat little Children" - and does nothing concerning what they say.

They don't just do nothing Oliver. I wish it were as easy as that. I'm by no means sure that Ahmadinejad will employ nuclear weapons against Israel. Actually I think it's more likely that Iran will use the nuclear option to bolster its position in the region and gain the same immunity as Kim Jong-il has. But it's very dangerous to just rely on the worst case scenario not to happen - that particular strategy already failed in Iraq. I'd be glad if Ahmadinejad announces tomorrow that the whole Jew-hating thing was just a joke between friends. But I seriously doubt that this is going to happen.

Plus, you have to consider the propaganda effect of his speeches and behavior. I already mentioned Goethe's Zauberlehrling in another thread. You already know about the Palestinian Martyr mouse. From what I've read, Jew bashing has become part of the education in some Middle Eastern countries. The problem is, even if Ahmadinejad is just rationally exploiting the scapegoating tactic to gather public support, the populace might take him seriously. They already take The Protocols of the Elders of Zion seriously.

This is not about fear Oliver. It's about vigilance. Try to get that distinction into your head, please. And at the risk of invoking Godwin's law, you do know what happened not too long ago in our own country, when the deluded writings of an aspiring dictator were not taken seriously. There even was a small number of foreign diplomats who had actually read the book and tried to warn their governments about what might happen, but they were simply dismissed in order to buy "peace in our time".

2. A society that formally says: "FREEDOM!", "PIECE", DEMOCRACY!"
- and goes to war, starts covert operations and invades countries that are no threat.

Yes, Iraq was no threat to the Western world, at least in the short term. But: We know that for sure only in hindsight, and Hussein definitely was a threat to his own people in any case. Of course it would all have been much easier if the West had teared down the "Realpolitik" of pandering to nasty dictators much earlier. It's a real mess now, and there are still a lot of dictators' asses to kick. The US will just have to sit this through. You of all people should be glad about this, since it means that America's military resources are bound in Iraq for the foreseeable future.

I know you don't like my example. But that's exactly my point here:
"Reden kann man viel - letztendlich zählen die Taten."

(Translation: "One can talk all day long - the actions are what finally counts.")

Some people might not be willing to wait until it's too late. And Oliver, it's not as though there were no actions. Do you know about the little colored plastic keys to Heaven the suicide kids in the Iran-Iraq war were equipped with? I thought culture was important to you. Don't you think we've got an incredibly nasty culture here, a culture which shouldn't be conserved but fought?
 
Then we agree that every other intervention instead focusing on Al Qaida is and was a lie, don't we?


Huh? Are you saying that Afghanistan wasn't justified?


No. Until they attack their Neighbors they're nothing but a theoretical threat.


Huh?

threat (thrĕt)
pron.gif

n.
  1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
  2. An indication of impending danger or harm.
  3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.

And yes, I understand the ones who try to portray it otherwise - but they are basically saying: "The average criminal in the US is 25, male and black. Sorry, we have to preemptively put you into prison because you're 25, male and black." :boggled:


I have really no idea what it is you're trying to argue. What I said is that these countries only have the military capabilities to attack their neighbors, versus launching an attack on, say, Norway.

In other words, even when they are warmongering dictatorships, they are only a threat to their own people and the people in nearby countries. For now.
 

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