• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Time has a beginning?

I thought circumnavigating was like following the circumference of something?
What is meant is the act of travelling in a constant direction until you come back to your original position.
Circumnavigating has the connotation of going around the circumference of something but is used in this case since there does not seem to be a better word for the action.

In that case, how are galaxies meant to collide? Surely if they were all constantly speeding up that should never happen? And if gravity is meant to be such a weak force, how could it slow down a galaxy?
The balloon analogy for the expansion of the universe is good here (remember that it includes just the surface of the balloon).
Just change it so that the dots (galaxies) are no longer fixed to the balloon surface but move around according to the force of gravity. It is easy to see that galaxies can collide.

Gravity is a weak force compared to the other forces. It is a strong force when acting upon large masses over long periods of time.
 
So, are galaxies orbiting anything then and is there nothing in the universe that is moving in a straight line? I've seen simulations where the Earth is revolving around the sun like the stripes on a barber's pole, rather than on a flat plane, and with sun doing the same around some other point in space within our galaxy's arm - although I wasn't sure what it was the sun was orbiting around! Is everything moving within this fashion, and what would the Milky Way or other galaxies be orbiting around?
 
Last edited:
So, are galaxies orbiting anything then and is there nothing in the universe that is moving in a straight line? I've seen simulations where the Earth is revolving around the sun like the stripes on a barber's pole, rather than on a flat plane, and with sun doing the same around some other point in space within our galaxy's arm - although I wasn't sure what it was the sun was orbiting around! Is everything moving within this fashion, and what would the Milky Way or other galaxies be orbiting around?
The answer is that galaxies do not orbit around a specific object.
They do move around the center of mass of the galactic cluster that they are in. There is no actual physical object at the center of the galactic cluster.
 
The answer is that galaxies do not orbit around a specific object.
They do move around the center of mass of the galactic cluster that they are in. There is no actual physical object at the center of the galactic cluster.

You mean the galaxy rotates around a massive black hole? But they are not spiralling through space themselves, like us around the sun; they are moving in a relatively straight line?
 
You mean the galaxy rotates around a massive black hole? But they are not spiralling through space themselves, like us around the sun; they are moving in a relatively straight line?
I did not say that. A galaxy does not rotate around a black hole.

The galaxies in a galactic cluster orbit around the center of mass of the cluster. There is nothing physical at the center of mass. Galaxies move in a "relatively" straight line in the sense that their orbits are millions of light years in width and so a small part of the orbit is fairly straight.
 
There is an apparent conflation in "galaxy rotates around the black hole"--it's a statement that's a bit ambiguous. The center of mass for our galaxy is indeed at a supermassive black hole, so it's true in that sense; however, the center of mass our local galactic group is not at any sort of black hole, which is the more pertinent issue.
 
Ragnarok is having a problem with the idea that galaxies can move within space relative to each other, while space itself is expanding.

As space expands, the galaxies themselves are not getting any larger, because gravity is holding them together. The Andromeda Galaxy is moving towards our own galaxy, despite the fact that the space between them is expanding, because it is being attracted by our galaxy's gravity.
 
Extremely important to me! You may be content to believe you are living on the back of an infinite turtle that was hatched from a big bad bang egg.

Please explain how the differences in time at the big bang have an impact on the current universe. If it does not have an effect, then isn't it just mental masterbation? Why not start talking about how many angles can dance on the head of a pin or other famous questions?
 
Please explain how the differences in time at the big bang have an impact on the current universe. If it does not have an effect, then isn't it just mental masterbation? Why not start talking about how many angles can dance on the head of a pin or other famous questions?

Hey, each to his own prefered type of mental masturbation. Do you engage in any meaningless activities -- like sports, puzzles, reading fiction, playing chess? The questions revolving around the nature, origins and future of the universe hold great fascination and importance for me. End of discussion!
 
In that case, how are galaxies meant to collide? Surely if they were all constantly speeding up that should never happen? And if gravity is meant to be such a weak force, how could it slow down a galaxy?

This is where I find the rubber sheet analogy better than the balloon. Imagine the universe as a large, smooth (meaning completely frictionless) rubber sheet. A mass in the universe is just like a mass placed on the sheet. It creates a dent in the sheet, but is still free to move around on it if given a push. Another object placed on the sheet and pushed near the first one will follow a curved path due to the dent, and may end up orbiting it or even hitting it depending on the exact conditions. This is the basic analogy for explaining gravity in relativity.

Now, to make it relevant to this discussion, imagine the sheet is no longer just sitting there, but is constantly being stretched. This is completely independent of any objects that may be resting on it, it's the sheet itself that is stretching. If you now take two objects placed a long way from each other so that they don't notice their respective dents, they will each observe the other moving away. This is the case even though neither is moving with respect to the sheet.

Now take many such objects, all far enough from each other that their dents don't affect each other. Every single object will observe every other object moving away from it. Since the stretching is perfectly even, the speed the other objects seem to be moving is proportional to the distance between them. To every object, it appears that it is stationary and every thing else is moving away from it, which must logically mean that it is at the centre. However, if you now consider the rubber sheet to be curved into a sphere, rather like the balloon analogy, you can see that there is no centre - every part of the rubber sheet is equivalent to every other part.

If you now move the objects on the sheet closer together, so that they start being influenced by the dents caused by other objects on the sheet, you can see the effects of gravity. The sheet is still expanding, but if the dent is big enough and the objects close enough together, they will fall towards each other faster than the sheet pulls them apart. Depending on the details, this may result in a collision, or it may just lead to them orbiting each other. If you have more than two objects near each other, the motion can get quite complex - even with just three objects we don't currently know how to solve the equations of motion except in a few specific cases.

Obviously, if you do have a group of objects that all fall towards each other, that means they can't be falling towards any objects somewhere else on the sheet. So what you end up with is clusters of objects held together by their mutual attraction, but with all the clusters moving away from each other due to the continued stretching of the sheet. Of course, since the dent caused by the combined group of objects is much larger than that from a single object, the clusters themselves can interacy with each other and form even larger scale structures - studying this is one of the focuses of modern cosmology.

All this assumes that the rubber sheet is being stretched at a constant rate. That means that once a couple of objects are orbiting each other, they're pretty much going to stay that way unless another one comes along and disrupts things. However, if someone starts stretching the sheet faster and faster, it will reach a point where the stretching of the rubber between the two objects is actually faster than the speed they are falling towards each other (orbit is bascially just falling that keeps missing), and the objects will be pulled apart. Since the speed the stretching makes objects move apart depends on the distance between them, the large scale clusters will be the first things to come apart. As the stretching accelerates further, smaller clusters will come apart until eventually every object has been pulled so far from any others that it can no longer even see they exist.

So on that point you are almost right. If the stretching is fast enough, gravity can't pull galaxies together to collide. However, the important point is that accelerating expansion doesn't necessarily mean fast expansion. It will eventually be much faster if it continues to accelerate, but it hasn't reached the point where it can pull galaxies away from their neighbours yet.

So, does that help at all?

Please explain how the differences in time at the big bang have an impact on the current universe. If it does not have an effect, then isn't it just mental masterbation? Why not start talking about how many angles can dance on the head of a pin or other famous questions?

Fundamental physics can actually be quite important. The current universe is a direct result of whatever happened before, so understanding what happened before leads to better understanding of what is happening now. And what is happening now is important because, aside from knowledge for its own sake, it leads to things like nuclear fission, hopefully fusion soon and who knows what else after that.

Anyway, everyone knows that angles don't dance. They're not acute enough.:)
 
There once was a universe with no time,
Not a speck or spot worth a dime,
Along came a bang,
From which everything sprang,
And with time, we rose from the slime.
 
Extremely important to me! You may be content to believe you are living on the back of an infinite turtle that was hatched from a big bad bang egg.
Whether or not I'll have enough money to pay the bills next month is an extremely important question to me.

What to get my wife for our anniversary is an extremely important question to me.

Whether or not the government has any clue at all how to improve the economy is an extremely important question to me.

What goes on in the extremely distant regions of spacetime that our current mathematical models can't adequately describe? I'd say that's a mildly interesting question to me.

So. Now that we know this is an extremely important question to you, can you explain why it's extremely important to you?
 
Whether or not I'll have enough money to pay the bills next month is an extremely important question to me.

What to get my wife for our anniversary is an extremely important question to me.

Whether or not the government has any clue at all how to improve the economy is an extremely important question to me.

What goes on in the extremely distant regions of spacetime that our current mathematical models can't adequately describe? I'd say that's a mildly interesting question to me.

So. Now that we know this is an extremely important question to you, can you explain why it's extremely important to you?

1. Are you aware that there are people in the world with serious economic problems, who may be very ill, who live in countries with chaotic government, who nevertheless spend a great deal of their time worrying about the success of their local sports team? It's not rational, but it just is! Well, that's me and the nature and history of the universe.

2. Another angle is that I'm an old guy fortunate to have few such serious problems so that one of my main pursuits is to understand as much about the nature of the universe before my atoms become dissipated by dark energy into that predicted bleak vacuum of the future.

3. I very much enjoy the quest and discussions with friends and strangers in these forums. It beats sitting in a rocking chair and smoking a pipe.
______________________________________________________

Is that enough? It's an important part of my life.
 
1. Are you aware that there are people in the world with serious economic problems, who may be very ill, who live in countries with chaotic government, who nevertheless spend a great deal of their time worrying about the success of their local sports team? It's not rational, but it just is! Well, that's me and the nature and history of the universe.

2. Another angle is that I'm an old guy fortunate to have few such serious problems so that one of my main pursuits is to understand as much about the nature of the universe before my atoms become dissipated by dark energy into that predicted bleak vacuum of the future.

3. I very much enjoy the quest and discussions with friends and strangers in these forums. It beats sitting in a rocking chair and smoking a pipe.
______________________________________________________

Is that enough? It's an important part of my life.
Fair enough. Good luck with your inquiries.

(Though I should note that I have observed empirically that it's possible to participate in online discussions while sitting in a rocking chair and smoking a pipe.)
 
Fair enough. Good luck with your inquiries.

(Though I should note that I have observed empirically that it's possible to participate in online discussions while sitting in a rocking chair and smoking a pipe.)

Yes, but you can only type on the forward rock, and the ash gets everywhere.

Cuddles, your reply was very helpful and well explained.
 
Now, to make it relevant to this discussion, imagine the sheet is no longer just sitting there, but is constantly being stretched. This is completely independent of any objects that may be resting on it, it's the sheet itself that is stretching. If you now take two objects placed a long way from each other so that they don't notice their respective dents, they will each observe the other moving away. This is the case even though neither is moving with respect to the sheet.

I'm thinking there's one problem with this analogy. Stretching the sheet would change the size and shape of the impressions made by the objects. Which in the analogous situation would imply gravity was changing.
 

Back
Top Bottom