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Merged Thread to Discuss The Excellent Analysis of Jones latest paper

The Big Dog

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JREF member Sunstealer has done a very credible job in discussing the article recently paid for by Professor Jones. Notably, this technical analysis is based on the data published in the article itself. It is located here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4607894&postcount=1694

This post is taken from a closed thread, and I am following up certain moderators' suggestions that a separate thread be opened to discuss this analysis. I have also asked that it go directly to moderation.

Thanks and enjoy in moderation!
 
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JREF member Sunstealer has done a very credible job in discussing the article recently paid for by Professor Jones.

I find it hard to believe that the only possible explanation for Professor Jones' data is SunStealer's interpretation. Below, I reproduce my posts suggesting other ways to get platelet morphology aluminotherics. I made one essential correction. The text now reads "Besides packing more Al per unit volume, a platelet morphology, by maximizing the ratio of Al to Al oxide, ...." , instead of "Besides packing more Al per unit volume, a platelet morphology, by minimizing the ratio of Al to Al oxide, ...."

==========================================

Playing with Platelets

There may be other options. E.g., you can buy silicon in nano-scale platelet form.


You can deposit Al onto silicon via sputtering.

( and perhaps other methods of physical vapor deposition? not sure if this means elemental Al )


As for the motivation to do so, I have absolutely no idea about cost (and absolutely no intention to research it), but aside from that, referring to "MODELING THE MELT DISPERSION MECHANISM FOR NANOPARTICLE COMBUSTION"

we see that:

nanometer scale spherical particles in nanothermite are 20-120 nm

oxide shell thickness is 1-8 nm

consider middling values of 50 nm and 4 nm, about 26% of your particle is taken up in the oxide shell. You are also wasting the space in between spheres.

Perhaps platelets made on nano-silicon platelet substrates help you pack more elemental Al, per unit volume. Especially if Al-oxide shells are "sticky" as they form Al nanothermite in the normal, spherical form, thus leaving huge pockets of empty space to fill. (BTW, IIRC, the Ph.D. thesis I linked to gets into compressing nanopowders. If not that one, then definitely the master's thesis mentioned above.)

If it does this, and saves you money, that would be a double motivation for doing so.

Once again, I remind everybody that I am not a domain expert. Thus, my sputtering speculations may sputter!




Playing with Platelets, part 2

Another speculation as to platelets vs. spherical:

The MODELING thesis says:

Quote:
A combination of increased oxide shell formation temperature and increased oxide shell strength could be used to maximize the flame velocity in particles with increased relative particle size.


Besides packing more Al per unit volume, a platelet morphology, by maximizing the ratio of Al to Al oxide, might result in not just more energy, but relatively less power (i.e., a slower reaction). For one thing, I expect the oxide layer to break near the platelet edges (this is an uneducated guess, I hasten to add), and to do so under less pressure than would be required to break an oxide layer of equal thickness in the spherical case. * This would tend to negate the dispersion melt mechanism as a contributor to flame propagation. Hence, your nanothermite will have it's power profile shifted back towards that of the micron-thermite type, while simultaneously generating more total energy.


If you look at Fig. 1 of MODELING, you can see that Aluminothermics already have dramatically superior energy density (per unit mass) than high explosives, but the energy density, per unit volume, of Al/Fe2O3 is only about 40% greater than high explosives. You can't change the inherent mass of reactants, but you can fiddle with the density. If you simultaneously increase the energy per unit volume, while slowing down the reaction, you can end up with a hotter, but quieter "explosion".


* from MODELING:
Quote:
The pressure inside the Al particle causes tensile hoop stress (σh) in the oxide shell. Due to the small thickness of the oxide shell (1 – 8 nm), it is almost defect free and therefore its ultimate strength (σu) approaches the theoretical maximum strength of alumina (σth) estimated at 11.33 GPa [11].
 
I am very appreciative of the moderated status of this new thread.

As it is new, and so as not to lose my points/areas of concern, I will restate them here.

1. Jones' Analysis was biased, and focused on finding a particular outcome from the get go. As a result, the analysis and subsequent paper ignore, or at best GLAZE OVER the issue of other possible sources of their Red/Grey Chips.

2. Jones' did not address, outside of a dismissive "it is contamination" the presence of Chromium and Zinc in at least one sample, and with this in mind, the possibility that the Sodium spikes in the Spectra, may have also been Zinc. There was no washing of the samples in order to eliminate contamination as a possiblity (or to rule it in).

3. All of the other LEGITIMATE analysis of dust from the WTC GZ had a considerable quantity of Paint in the dust samples. Yet there is no mention of paint particles within the samples that Jones had, and if they were found, how they were separated from the red/grey chips. I find the magnet method poor, because as we all know, paint from the WTC could have been found in the form of bilayered particles, due to peel off or rust/corrosion, and as a result, a magnet would work on them also.

4. I have a problem with the Journal that Jones selected to submit/publish his article with. There is mention of a personal connection between one of the lead scientists producing the paper, and the editorial board. There is a wealth of information indicating that the journal is a "Vanity" "Pay to publish" journal that solicited for members of the editorial boards for its various journals via viral email schemes to unqualified, unrelated (in field of knowledge) academics.

TAM:)
 
I'll start by thanking 16.5.

I planned to do something similar, but it seems the original thread has ended quicker than anticipated.

I also think it's essential that a link to Jones' (God someone put me out of my misery and tell me that damn apostrophe is in the right place or that I need to add an S or ES or something!) paper is in order otherwise we won't know what we are talking about, eh 16.5? ;) :p

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

I suggest people download it and open it whenever they wish to comment because it's going to get referenced alot. When people quote from the paper it helps immensely if the page number, the chip sample (*see below) and/or the diagram or graph (Fig #) is also stated so that it can be referenced quickly.

In time I will get a better prepared and fully correlated response using material from the other thread (better google cache that then!) and other sources. You'll all be aware that anything that isn't on the web doesn't exist, so I need to ensure all sources have links etc. ;)

I'd also like to say that there were a couple of posts I would have liked to have replied to in the closed thread, because they were relevant ones and deserve a scientific and civil response namely Bill's and metamars

I'm sure I'll have time to answer them, in the mean time here is a table (or maybe pic if I can get it sorted at this late hour) that breaks down the samples in Jones' paper and shows which experiments were carried out on each sample (that helps everyone understand what was done to each) therefore enhancing understanding. It might not be 100% correct at this moment, because I've still still look at post DSC; photo/SEM/EDS analysis in depth (and word 2007 is a PITA- grrrr [yes I know open office but I don't have it on this machine). Feel free to comment/correct/ask questions though.

* Do people agree that the following is correct so far? It's not crystal clear from the paper, but I'm working my way through it - boy does that take time. Any comments would be helpful - this is a WIP.

picture.php
 
I have not read the original post but I independently reviewed Jones' paper and concluded the following:

Jones investigates only the red and gray chips and not the entire sample. He has a limited sample size. The chips have a laminar nature which suggests a coating or adhesive but he rules out paint by comparing the effect of MEK on some unknown paint and comparing it to the effect on the red chips. This is either incompetence or scientific misconduct and fraud.
He sees that there is an organic fraction but does not analyze it. He uses DSC to measure exotherms but does it in a stream of air so he cannot tell the difference between a reaction and plain combustion of components but claims thermitic reaction. His EDAX shows silicon, aluminum, and oxygen in the same areas of the particle but he ignores this congruency; aluminosilicates are clays and are often fillers in paints and coatings. He does not extract a larger sample of the red and gray chips with a more agressive solvent, such as hot DMF or DMF-DMSO which would allow analysis of individual components.

His conclusion that this is a thermitic material is not justified based on the data.

I have not reviewed the paper in depth, but that may be a waste of time as it is fatally flawed, in my opinion. I estimate that the samples are a red oxide primer on corroded steel.
 
Jones' samples do not appear to me to all have the exact same make-up. There is zinc chromate, an obvious indicator that we may be looking at rust-inhibiting paint, in some of them, but not in others. There are varied concentrations from one chip to another of those elements which are found in all the chips.

Excuse me, but, if you are going to the trouble of producing nano-banano demolition films, are you not gooing to take steps to ensure that each anmd every piece of it is the same thickness and has the same concentration of each and every reagent? I fail to see how the sooper-dooper ther*te would function in anything like a predictable manner if there were expanses of the film over which not all the neccessary components were found.

Paint is, however, quite another matter.

If the vehicle is evenly distributed throughout, it is going to work as paint The vehicle is an utterly homogeneous liquid substance. It suspends the fillers and pigments in order to stick them to the surface to be painted.

If it is not stirred properly, the fillers and pigmments will be present in different concentrations throughout a sample of still-liquid paint, perhaps in a thick paste at the bottom of the can, or layered with different concentrations of filler and pigment up and down the column. The vehicle is, however, not in any way altered.

So, we stir the paint and begin painting a large job of structural steel, and then pause before another batch, but out belly buttons are punching us in the back and urging us to complete this run before 1200, so we do not bother to stir the paint again.

By this time, there is a thin layer of nearly clear vehicle sitting on top of the reservoir, a heavy concentraion of kaolin at the bottom, and layers with a lot of zinc chromate, layers with a lot of iron oxide, layers with a lot of Titanium white and so on throughout the reservoir. The resulting applications will not be of a uniform hue or density of color and it may be a little sluggish comiong out of the nozzle as you start to draw in the bottom stratum of solids, but the vehicle is still going to stick to the steel and harden into pretty nearly the same sort of material throughout the process. It works perfectly, within this context.

It's just unaesthetic.

Inconsistant paint works, sort of. Inconsistant therm*te does not, usually.
 
Playing with Platelets

You can deposit Al onto silicon via sputtering.

( and perhaps other methods of physical vapor deposition? not sure if this means elemental Al )

Dr. G. informs me that sputtering is very expensive. (Page 3, here.) It would cost hundreds of dollars to coat just 1 teaspoon. I don't know about the practicality of depositing the Al via vaporizing it thermally in a vacuum, then gradually re-introducing air, but I have calculated that the energy input to vaporize 10 short tons of aluminum is only on the order of $4,000. (I assumed that oxygen to make a forced flame would roughly equal double the cost of the oil, which is a sheer guess.)
 
Sunstealer:

A question;

The length of time the samples were stored (6 years) and the method (whether they were stored in the dark or light, plastic bag or not, etc....) of storage, can these have an effect on the essential make up of the chips? Specifically, can chemical reactions occur over time, or with improper storage, that might make some of the elements that may have been in the chips disappear (ie become part of a compound outside the chip) or make certain element appear that would not have been there in the beginning, but began present overtime?

Thanks

TAM:)
 
I find it hard to believe that the only possible explanation for Professor Jones' data is SunStealer's interpretation. [snip]

Just a quick comment, early in the thread. Sunstealer's interpretation may or may not be the best interpretation--to my eye, it appears to be a better one than Jones' interpretation, but I am no expert--but it does not have to be. Sunstealer's interpretation is sufficient to point out important flaws in Jones' analysis, and this is all it needs to do.

If a chemist finds a brand new reaction, and someone points out that her test tubes were dirty, the proper response is not to argue that dirty test tubes don't matter, but to redo the experiment with clean test tubes. Sunstealer has pointed out enough problems that the ball is back in Jones' court. The burden of proof is where it should be--on Jones.
 
Very, very interesting admission by Jones et al upon questioning via email by Dr. Greening...

So when I bounced my calculations and conclusions off Jones et al, all he could come up with was the suggestion that there were probably other explosives used in the WTC and the nanothermite chips were maybe just fuses!

Thus, after all the fuss about high-tech nano-thermites, we are back to good-old "bombs in the buildings" as the answer to how the buildings were destroyed.

http://the911forum.freeforums.org/active-thermitic-material-in-wtc-dust-t150-30.html

Yes you read it correctly, Jones seems to be back tracking, CONSIDERABLY, to declare that the last several years of thermite talk, has been for Explosive "FUSES"!!!!

I am speechless.

TAM:)
 
He uses DSC to measure exotherms but does it in a stream of air so he cannot tell the difference between a reaction and plain combustion of components but claims thermitic reaction. His EDAX shows silicon, aluminum, and oxygen in the same areas of the particle but he ignores this congruency; aluminosilicates are clays and are often fillers in paints and coatings.

Exactly. Thermite works in a vacuum. You cannot ignite paint chips if yopu hit it with the heat of a ton of thermite in a vacuum.

Way to hit the floor with both guns firing on your first post.
 
Even if we were to hypothetically accept this as valid.

I don't see how we can go from, "hey we found a few weird flakes of something that could be thermite" too, "it can only be evidence that completely confirms, 9/11 was a done by our own gov't in a big conspiracy by some evil secret NWO group to control the world".

The leap into imagination would still be just as mind boggling.
 
Very, very interesting admission by Jones et al upon questioning via email by Dr. Greening...



http://the911forum.freeforums.org/active-thermitic-material-in-wtc-dust-t150-30.html

Yes you read it correctly, Jones seems to be back tracking, CONSIDERABLY, to declare that the last several years of thermite talk, has been for Explosive "FUSES"!!!!

I am speechless.

TAM:)

Much ado about nothing. The chips were announced in 2007. I believe that that's the first year they were studied. Jones' first paper presenting the thermite hypothesis was earlier. Also, he's previously said that he believed there were a couple of forms of thermite.

His recent paper deals with whether or not nano-thermite is present, not how it was used. Frankly, I don't think Professor Jones cares how it was used, exactly.

What is important is whether or not it's thermite, paint chips, or some other mundane material. Speaking for myself, I'll probably devote some time, in the next few weeks, to printing out a few copies and seeing if the physicists and materials scientists in town have an opinion. I'll also print out the photo of kaolinite, and show them that. However, I have my doubts that it's kaolinite. See my next post.
 
DSC for kaolinite doesn't match Jones' samples

First off, I must point out again that I have very limitied knowledge and ability in these matters. I am presenting my observations as a very slightly educated guess, and not a strong assertion of fact.

If you look at p. 1260 of the Second Edition of the Encyclopedia of Surface and Colloid Science you see two spikes, in the DSC graph of raw kaolinite, figure 4 (a). The first one, which is completely missing in the Jones' DSC plots, is at what looks like 50 C. The second spike is at about 525 C.

In figure 4(b), they show a DSC for Kaolinite-DMSO. There are still spikes at 50 C and 525 C. There is also a new spike at about 180 C. The key observation which I make is that adding crap to the kaolinite doesn't move or remove raw kaolinite spikes. Is this always true? I frankly don't know. But, if it is true, then the Jones' samples are not kaolinite.

I hope SunStealer will comment on this.
 
DSC peak dependence on Temperature for AlMoO3 aluminothermic

Figure 5.8 ( p 83 of the paper; the 104th page counting pages before page 1) of COMBUSTION CHARACTERISTICS OF A1 NANOPARTICLES AND NANOCOMPOSITE A1+MoO3 THERMITES shows the dramatic difference that Al particle size has on DSC peaks, for the case of Al/MoO3 aluminothermic. They plot, on the same graph, the DSC's for Al particle sizes of 40nm, 50nm, 80nm, 120nm, 1-3μm, 3-4.5 μm, 4.5-7μm, 10-14μm and 20μm. The larger the particle size, the higher temperature you need to hit the biggest peak.

(Actually, it looks like 1-3μm and 3-4.5 μm do not follow this general trend, but those peaks are very close.)

The DSC peak for the fattest Al particle, the 20μm, occurs at about 1010 C. The peak for the smallest Al particle, the 40 nm one, occurs at 500 C. Jones' DSC peak. for what he suggests is Al/Fe2O3 thermite, is in the 415 - 435 C range.

Notice, also, that this dramatic drop of DSC peak temperature with decreasing particle size puts to bed the egregiously wrong notion that there's nothing special about nano-scale properties, which some people were proclaiming in the first JREF thread on this subject.
 
A question about the post linked to in the original post: where does the kaolinite with gypsum spectrum come from?
 
Sunstealer:

A question;

The length of time the samples were stored (6 years) and the method (whether they were stored in the dark or light, plastic bag or not, etc....) of storage, can these have an effect on the essential make up of the chips? Specifically, can chemical reactions occur over time, or with improper storage, that might make some of the elements that may have been in the chips disappear (ie become part of a compound outside the chip) or make certain element appear that would not have been there in the beginning, but began present overtime?

Thanks

TAM:)
EDS/EDX/XEDS basically will tell you what elements are present - and that's about it really. If a chemical reaction occurs within the sample itself then the EDS will show exactly the same spectrum as before - XRD will show the difference. The case where that will be different will be if the sample has oxidised (therefore should get a larger O peak) or it's come onto contact with another material which either contaminates the sample or reacts with it.

So as long as they were stored in a sealed plastic bag there won't be any problem.

However, it is true that reactions occur over long periods of time, eg: plastic left in sunlight, we've all seen computer parts turn that nasty yellow colour. Light could also effect the samples, but I doubt this - no one is going to store these outside of a draw/case etc.

Al/Fe2O3 powder particles are not going to be affected by everyday light. The Carbon matrix, which is binder in the samples might, but we have no idea what that specifically is so it's impossible to comment.

Everyone knows that I think the sample's red layers are paint (and not paint from the same source or composition I might add) and these will certainly take a long time (because they are engineered to last as long as possible) to change their characteristics and by that I mean drying out, flaking and cracking or colour change due to light.

I don't think that the length of time stored is any factor - the likelihood is that these chips have been exposed to the elements for just as long as, if not longer than the time stored, as part of the paint that was originally applied to who knows what. No one can say that these samples came specifically from the WTC or any other source - more on that later.

Just had a strange thought about carbon dating the "red layer" but I suspect that technique is not accurate enough to determine differences in such small time scales.
 
I have updated the "specimen test table" for Jones' paper - see below. This now gives us a clear indication of which tests and consequent analysis was performed on each sample of the paper.

It is now easy to cross compare samples and the tests carried out as well as see the source of each sample. Note - what Jones calls samples I call specimens and I use the term sample for the dust samples, but I shall revert to calling specimens as samples when referring to the paper to avoid confusion.

I hope it's readable and not too small - "ctrl and +" for firefox users to enlarge.

picture.php
 

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