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Ed Thoughts on the Willingham murder case

Skwinty

Philosopher
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
5,593
Oh well, we're in Community, so it doesn't matter if it's a derail, right?

The derail stems from the attempt to equate Willingham's failed appeals to Knox.
Not my doing, merely questioning the logic.

Squinty, that is appalling. It is unconscionable. You have ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKING IDEA what happened, whether he tried to save the children, whether he was in any position to try to save the children, whether it was even possible for him to have done anything to save the children.

My name is Skwinty, not Squinty.
It is apparent that neither do you have any idea of what happened.
Please read the link below.

But it just "seems to you".
It sure does, based on the court testimony.
Please read the link and comments below.

So you believe a fellow human being, who has lost three of his children in a house fire and nearly died himself, should be executed. Because it just "seems to you" he should have been able to save the children.
BS, there was nothing wrong with the scumbag other than singed eyebrows and a burn on his shoulder.
If he loved and wanted to save his kids, his flesh would have been hanging from his body due to the heat exposure
Please read the link and comments below.

Edited by jhunter1163: 
Moderated content removed.
Rolfe.

What disgusts me beyond description is the attempt by people to excuse murderers on a technicality of the law.
Would you prefer to see guilty people free on the streets instead of in prison or executed.

Please read the following facts below

The Willingham trial has become a sort of cause celebre by anti-death penalty proponents because it seems to be an example of outmoded scientific techniques which led to a miscarriage of justice. In fact, the trial testimony you reported in 1991 contains overwhelming evidence of guilt completely independent of the undeniably flawed forensic report.

Always omitted from any examination of the actual trial are the following facts:

1. The event which caused the three childrens' deaths was the third attempt by Todd Willingham to kill his children established by the evidence. He had attempted to abort pregnancy by vicious attacks on his wife in which he beat and kicked his wife with the specific intent to trigger miscarriage;

2. The “well-established burns” suffered by Willingham were so superficial as to suggest that the same were self-inflicted in an attempt to divert suspicion from himself;

3. Blood-gas analysis at Navarro Regional Hospital shortly after the homicide revealed that Willingham had not inhaled any smoke, contrary to his statement which detailed “rescue attempts;”

4. Consistent with typical Navarro County death penalty practice, Willingham was offered the opportunity to eliminate himself as a suspect by polygraph examination. Such opportunity was rejected in the most vulgar and insulting manner;

5. Willingham was a serial wife abuser, both physically and emotionally. His violent nature was further established by evidence of his vicious attacks on animals which is common to violent sociopaths;

6. Witness statements established that Willingham was overheard whispering to his deceased older daughter at the funeral home, “You're not the one who was supposed to die.” (The origin of the fire occured in the infant twins bedroom) and;

7. Any escape or rescue route from the burning house was blocked by a refrigerator which had been pushed against the back door, requring any person attempting escape to run through the conflagration at the front of the house.

8. The witness further testified that this igniting of the floors and thresholds is typically employed to impede firemen in their rescue attempts. The testimony at trial demonstrates that Willingham neither showed remorse for his actions nor grieved the loss of his three children. Willingham’s neighbors testified that when the fire “blew out” the windows, Willingham “hollered about his car” and ran to move it away from the fire to avoid its being damaged. A fire fighter also testified that Willingham was upset that his dart board was burned.

9. One of appellant's neighbors testified that the morning following the house *355 fire, Christmas Eve, appellant and his wife were at the burned house going through the debris while playing music and laughing. At the punishment phase of trial, testimony was presented that appellant has a history of violence. He has been convicted of numerous felonies and misdemeanors, both as an adult and as a juvenile, and attempts at various forms of rehabilitation have proven unsuccessful


The Willingham case was charged as a multiple child murder, and not an arson-murder to achieve capital status. I am convinced that in the absence of any arson testimony, the outcome of the trial would have been unchanged, a fact that did not escape the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals. While anti-death penalty advocates can muster some remarkably good arguments, Todd Willingham should not be anyone's poster child.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/willingham899.htm
 
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4. Consistent with typical Navarro County death penalty practice, Willingham was offered the opportunity to eliminate himself as a suspect by polygraph examination. Such opportunity was rejected in the most vulgar and insulting manner;

I would too!
 
The Willingham trial has become a sort of cause celebre by anti-death penalty proponents because it seems to be an example of outmoded scientific techniques which led to a miscarriage of justice.

Has it? Can't say I've ever heard of it before.

Much better examples are all those people who spend many years in jail convicted of crimes (which in other jurisdictions would have attracted the death penalty) and then are exonerated by modern forensic science.
 
I don't assert that no innocent people are wrongly convicted.

In the case of Willingham, according to court testimony, this doesn't seem to be one of them though.

All his appeals were unanimously denied even when the arson charges were brought into question. The second opinions on these charges only happened a number of years after he was convicted, so I imagine that the analysis was done from existing records, video and photographs.

As far as I can tell, the arguments still continue in the courts about Willinghams conviction and sentence.

In any event, there was a lot of other evidence with regard to his guilt. Should this evidence also be thrown out in conjunction with the arson evidence?

I can understand and accept DNA evidence over riding a past conviction.

Too argue that the arson evidence over rides other evidence must imply a conspiracy amongst the prosecution and judges.
 
As my post seems to be what sparked this off, I'll come in here to clarify, that's all.

Skwinty said, in the original thread, that because (in his view) Willingham had not tried hard enough to rescue the children, he deserved the death penalty no matter how the fire started.

That was what I was reacting to, not anything to do with the rest of the discussion. To declare that someone who has not tried hard enough to rescue someone else (in the opinion of somene who was nowhere near the incident and is merely reading about it on the internet) FROM A FIRE THAT STARTED ACCIDENTALLY deserves the death penalty is in my opinion quite disgusting.

The above elaboration seems to be saying that if the flesh wasn't hanging from his body, he didn't try hard enough and so should be sentenced to death.

I'm not getting into the arguments about whether or not this fire was arson. I am merely pointing out that my response was to a post referring to the death penalty being appropriate even if the fire was an accident and Mr. Willingham was entirely innocent.

Rolfe.
 
As my post seems to be what sparked this off, I'll come in here to clarify, that's all.....

So did you read the post and links?


I'm not getting into the arguments about whether or not this fire was arson. I am merely pointing out that my response was to a post referring to the death penalty being appropriate even if the fire was an accident and Mr. Willingham was entirely innocent.

Rolfe.


Please show me where I said "and Mr. Willingham was entirely innocent"
He might have had the arson charge dispute many years after his conviction but there was other evidence to indicate his guilt.
 
Skwinty (sorry, this is hard for me to remember, because where I come from the word is spelled "squinty"), do you even remember the post of yours I was replying to?

Seems to me he couldn't have made the slightest effort to save his kids regardless of how the fire started.

He deserved to be executed.


"Regardless of how the fire started." In other words, you were stating the position that a man who doesn't try hard enough to save his children from a fire (in your opinion) deserves the death penalty even if the fire was entirely accidental. I stand by my position that this is a disgusting attitude.

If he did start that fire deliberately, to kill the children, I'm not going to bat for him. Knock yourself out. But to say he deserved to be executed because he didn't reach your high standards of heroism, even if the fire was an accident, is something else.

Rolfe.
 
Actually I do remember the posts I make.

I may be old but I am not senile.

Here are the posts I made regarding Willingham in the original thread up to your post.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6879772&postcount=332
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6884017&postcount=545
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6884117&postcount=548
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6884759&postcount=584

I make no apology for my disdain towards the non action of a coward.
If you read the links I have posted, it would "seem" that Willingham was indeed a coward.

Unless of course you believe that the witnesses, judge, prosecutor and the entire appellate court were involved in a conspiracy to despatch him into oblivion.

The man could find his trousers in the room, but not his child. Her body was found in the bedroom. He could stand outside with no significant injury and watch the house starting to burn despite his neighbours begging him to save them,

Unless of course they were all perjuring themselves in court. The only time time he showed an inclination to enter the house was after the fire department had arrived, and then he was concerned about his car and dartboard.

Unless of course the witnesses were once again perjuring themselves in court.

So yes, my opinion is that he deserved to be prosecuted to the full extent of the applicable law. He was executed and I feel no remorse or pity for him. He was an unmitigated coward.

At no time did I imply that he was innocent, that was implied by the Knox crowd who used this case as an example of a miscarriage of justice.
 
Like I said, I'm going to leave it to others to comment on whether the case was really proved beyond reasonable doubt. I have expressed no opinion on that at all, you will note. As I said, if that was arson, I'm not going to bat for him. Knock yourself out.

I confine my objection precisely to the post of yours that I quoted, the post I was specifically replying to.

Seems to me he couldn't have made the slightest effort to save his kids regardless of how the fire started.
He deserved to be executed.


He deserved to be executed REGARDLESS OF HOW THE FIRE STARTED.

I didn't type that, Skwinty, you did. Whether you were seriously considering the possibility that he might be innocent, or whether you were speaking hypothetically, that's what you said.

If you didn't mean it, the simple solution is to say so, I would think.

Rolfe.
 
....

That was what I was reacting to, not anything to do with the rest of the discussion. To declare that someone who has not tried hard enough to rescue someone else (in the opinion of somene who was nowhere near the incident and is merely reading about it on the internet) FROM A FIRE THAT STARTED ACCIDENTALLY deserves the death penalty is in my opinion quite disgusting.

....

Rolfe.

That is a bit startling. I don't believe in the efficacy of the death penalty and I'm even conflicted on LWOP as a humane form of punishment.

I've only read the New Yorker essay (essentially an anti-death penalty screed) and a few of the decisions by the appropriate level of legal authority in Texas. It is not at all clear to me that the source of the fire was accidental.

I was aware that some of the Knox apologists have seized upon this case as a parallel. The only parallel I know of is that both Knox and Willingham lied to the police and tried to distract and control the investigation. The New Yorker article single-handedly sparked a cottage industry devoted to proving his innocence. I wonder where they were during the twelve years leading up to his execution.

The Knox-is-innocent crowd is largely inspired by a vigorous PR campaign financed by Gogerty-Marriott, a Seattle consulting firm, and showcased on their website. There is no death penalty in Italy so more of the comparison falls by the wayside. Knox was defended by expensive lawyers and supported by the best forensic experts in all Italy while Willingham had a public defender and no experts on his side. Knox's boyfriend's lawyer is an influential Italian parliamentarian, in fact.

The biggest parallel is, of course, the fact that each of them were found guilty.
 
Well, the problem is:

Even if he did not start the fire, the evidence presented was that his injuries were superficial and he made no effort to save his kids while there was a chance.

Unless you believe that every one else was lying and Willingham was a paragon of virtue.

In any event, as I tried earlier to explain. I was trying to post at the time the mods moved our posts to AAH and my post vanished.

Your feelings of disgust are your prerogative and I have no intention of trying to persuade you otherwise.

I have no hard feelings towards you, I would just like you to read the comments and links I posted, and perhaps then your disgust would diminish.:)
 
Well, the problem is:

Even if he did not start the fire, the evidence presented was that his injuries were superficial and he made no effort to save his kids while there was a chance.


And in that case, he deserves the death penalty for that? That's what you said, remember.

Unless you believe that every one else was lying and Willingham was a paragon of virtue.


I have NO FREAKING IDEA. I am not familiar with the case. I read a post of yours which declared that a man deserved to be executed because his efforts to save these children were in your opinion insufficient. You said he deserved this, regardless of how the fire started.

If you didn't mean that, then the easiest thing to do is to say you didn't mean it.

Your feelings of disgust are your prerogative and I have no intention of trying to persuade you otherwise.

I have no hard feelings towards you, I would just like you to read the comments and links I posted, and perhaps then your disgust would diminish.:)


Look, you are now proceeding from the premise that the man was an arsonist and child-killer. As I said, if that's the case, I'm not going to bat for him. Carry on.

My disgust was quite clearly and specifically directed at your statement that he deserved to be executed EVEN IF HE WAS NOT AN ARSONIST AND CHILD KILLER, because he wasn't heroic enough.

Do you really mean that?

Rolfe.
 
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The man could find his trousers in the room, but not his child. Her body was found in the bedroom. He could stand outside with no significant injury and watch the house starting to burn despite his neighbours begging him to save them,.


So are those neighbours unmitigated cowards as well?
 
Was Skwinty's o/p infracted before being moved here, where it then happened to become the o/p? Because I can't see an offensive word or sentiment in it (although I might disagree with the analysis).
 

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