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Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kashyapa
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Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

Kashyapa said:

We've lost the way our founders laid out for us, and the world has suffered as a result.

Wow!!!! And who can take the blame for all the suffering in the world BEFORE the USA was even a dream?????

I do agree that war does NOT always solve things, but it is sometimes a necessary evil to resolve things gone terribly off kilter.

Corrupt governments in the Middle East are responsible for using the USA/Israel as a convenient scapegoat to deflect their citizen's anger away from THEIR own regimes. They have more than enough resources of their own to be successful and thriving countries and do not NEED the money of infidels to boost them up.

Until the world stops catering and making excuses for these corrupt governments, we cannot expect to see an end to more & more exported terror.
 
Gandhi secured independence in India with nonviolence. Martin Luther King helped end overt racism in our country.

That might have had something to do with the fact that they were opposing FREE, DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES--England or America--with a free press and where the citizen's opinion mattered, so that non-violence a). got covered despite the government not wanting it to, and b). changed the public's opinion despite the government's wishes to the contrary.

If Ghandi or MLK had tried non-violence against the Nazis, Saddam Hussein, or Bin Laden, they and their followers would simply have been slaughtered to the last man, without anybody hearing about it because no press would have been allowed. Remember the Kurds in the 1980s, where Saddam gassed them to death for daring to "oppose" him? Or the non-violent attempts to limit Hitler's power after 1933 (those who tried were simply butchered)? THAT'S how far non-violent resistance gets you with THOSE kinds of regimes.
 
Re: Re: Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

Skeptic said:
We oppose force with force, take an eye for an eye, revenge our dead by creating more. Instead of perpetuating the endless cycle, why not try combating hate with love, war with peace?

Because it's know as "appeasement" and it never worked. The sole result of "loving" and "understanding the motives" of terrorists is more terrorism.

Remember Hitler? Only when he was opposed by "an eye for an eye, revenging the dead by creating more", was he stopped. As long as Chamberline&co. tried "understanding" him, he just got stronger and of course created ever more mischief.

Why do the terrorists hate us? Because for the last hundred years, we've been at nearly endless war, trying to impose what we think is right on the world,

Indeed. What right did the US have to tell Hitler that killing millions of people isn't right, or to the USSR that trying to take over western europe and enslave it as well is bad.

Who says that a world-wide rule of radical Islam, setting it all back to the 7th century, is "bad"? What is "bad" anyway? Who knows? Who decides? This is SO philosophical...

The truth is, this attitude is--in a word--racist. It is of course horrible and evil for Hitler or Stalin to butcher and enslave, and it was fine for the US to stop them--since the victims were Europeans. But when it is Saddam or Ho Chi Min that murder and enslave, it's suddenly just "part of their culture" that the US has "no right" to stop, because it's just "imposing what the US considers right" on the world.

Why? Because, you know, Bin Laden & co. are just opressing foreigners, people with dark skins and fuuny clothes, that don't speak anything LIKE English. Who knows if these weird people don't ENJOY being ruled by dictatorial madmen? Perhaps they like it? The madmen in charge keep telling us that they are ruling by their people's will, so it has to be true!

sowing the seeds of hate and pain all around us. Don't delude yourself by saying that they "hate that we have a free society".

It's not a delusion.

There is nothing more dangerous for dictatorships than the free exchange of ideas and criticism. This is why the USSR, for example, used to improsion and kill, not only those who forcefully opposed it, but poets and writers as well. The fact that, in the US, people can actually criticize the religion or beliefs, or the actions, of those in charge without being shot dead is something Bin Laden and his friends fear far more than they fear the US military force.

It was often the case that a dictatorial regime was bombed or had its citizens killed by an opposing force and survived to tell the tale (the Iraq-Iran war, or for that matter, most "third world" wars, such as those in Africa, are between two dictatorships.) But not ONE dictatorial regime EVER survived giving its people the freedom to vote and speak their mind more than a couple of weeks. Once you get that, it's OVER.

THIS--the freedom America represents--is what they hate the most, not because of philosophical differences, but because it is the democracies' secret weapon, the trump card that will destroy the Bin Ladens of the world, like it destroyed Stalin's USSR, if the people they opress ever get a whiff of it. They have good reason to fear American freedom more than American bombs!

They hate us because of our heavy handedness, our willingness to f--k with other nation's affairs, to create little Alis in the name of our values, to bomb cities and wedding parties.

Funny, though, how the Afghanis--despite having a wedding party bombed by mistake by American troops--still welcomed the Americans as Liberators in Kabul and were quite glad that the Taliban are out. Perhaps it had someting to do with the fact that, as sad as the bombing of the wedding party was, it was accidental, unlike the Taliban's killing of anybody, in a wedding party or not, who dares not to agree with them.

They hate us because we presume that our way is best and that everyone should be like us

Yes, a free country where criticizing the government is possible without getting your hand cut off or worse. Disgusting, this awful cultural imperialism.

Of course, nobody ever complains that the US decided in WWII that the Germans and French DO need to "be like the United States" and be released from Hitler's opression. It's just when the US tries to help non-Europeans that the left protests: for all we know, these little brown and yellow-skinned people actually LIKE living in opression and fear, as their government's official propaganda repeatedly says.

Remind me to use the same principle if I ever witness, say, a husband trying to kill his wife. If he is white, I will call the cops. But if he is (say) Indian or Morrocan, I'll just move on; after all, who am I to impose MY western values on HIS traditional ones? Who says it's BETTER not to kill your wife than to do so? I don't want to be accused of "cultural imperialism" here, you see...

The only way out is peace. If the entire war budget had been devoted to building universities, schools, infrastructure, and perpetuating love, the world would be a better place.

...until some Bin Laden or Hitler who DID spend his money on weapons smacks his lips and decides to take over the now-defensless country. (Jesus Christ, how naive can you GET?)

The war hasn't changed anything but a regime. Why not change the minds and hearts of millions?

Changing the Regime DID change the hearts and minds of millions. It freed the Iraqis of living in daily terror and squalor, and their relief is quite visible as they kiss US troops. Building schools and hospitals for the Iraqis without changing the regime would have done nothing, since Saddam would simply have stolen it and used it to buy tanks and pay his secret police, as he did with most of the aid he got from the "oil-for-food" program.

Why not fund AIDS treatment for all the infected poor of Africa?Why not send our nation's youth out to do service work in less fortunate parts of the world?

The US IS doing that. Of course, not being a socialist country, it cannot FORCE anybody to go, which is why the peace corps don't include many people.

But a much, MUCH more important reason why not too many people are doing that, is that these areas are usually ruled by despotic regimes, which means that every aid given to the counry--any help against AIDS, for sanitation, etc., and all these other noble ideas--is simply stolen by the ruling regimes and used to buy them luxury mansions and pay for their military's weapons as their people starve.

You REALLY want to help Africa? Start by changing "only the regime" in about twenty countries. Send in the Marines, hang the local dictator from the nearest lamppost, to make sure nobody steals the food. THEN you could start talking about helping the poor, since then there is a chance the help will actually reach them.

Let's promote an open and tolerant and free society.

But you don't want to do THAT. That's cultural imperialism,
remember? Besides, promoting tolerant and free societies usually involves getting rid of the local despot first, which usually requires force, which of course is a no-no.

Skeptic I would print this out and hand it out at peace demonstrations. This is brilliant.

I always thought the, "What right do we have to impose are values on others?" was the worst argument. It really is never taken to its logical conclusion.

I mean for gosh sakes, what right did murdered civil rights workers like Goodwin, Schwerner, and Cheney have to go down to the South and try to fight for Civil Rights? Who are they to decide what is right? They were imposing their culture on Mississippi.

What right does anyone have to tell Pol Pot that he was wrong?

I mean the whole idea of human rights is that they are universal, not on a culture by culture basis.
 
So when does it end? When does the world become good and happy? When does the war stop? You've got all these great reasons why it works, tell me when to expect some results. I haven't seen any yet, and mankind has been waging war for the last several thousand years with barely a pause. So, all you people who seem to know better, when is it going to end?

Really. Let me know. Is it going to be anytime soon? :rolleyes:

This will be my last post. My only real objective in this thread was to vent, and I got to do that. I'm sick of arguing. I just want something better for the world- call me a naive idealist- and I think we should be actively working towards that rather than perpetuating the angst. But whatever. I'm tired of arguing politics and philosophy. The best possible wishes to you all. Live, love and be happy.
 
Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

Skeptic I would print this out and hand it out at peace demonstrations. This is brilliant.

I dunno. More like stating the blatantly obvious, if you ask me.

As for printing it out in peace rallies, it won't help. The "peace" protestors (more accurately, the "keep the dictator du jour in power by calling the US names" protestors) are really good at ignoring reality.

If I print it out and they agree to read it at all, they'll just call it "government propaganda", or "right-wing polemics", or "naive oversimplification of the situation", or something.
 
Answer the question, Skeptic. When is war going to finally produce results? Pragmatism now. When's the last dictator going to fall, the last murderer executed, the last disturbance quelled? When is war going to produce peace?

You have all the answers on what's really going to help the world. I mean, it's blatantly obvious that war works. So tell me when it will. Give me a reasonable timeframe. A year? A century? A milennium?

Never?


Hmm, just realized I posted again, right after I said I wouldn't. Oh well. I just couldn't resist asking my question. I'll go away happy when all you people who know how the world really works let me know what's up. I'll be waiting in anticipation!
 
Crime is still with us - obviously lets do away with police and all law. I mean, it hasn't given us a crime-free society so "clearly" it is useless and should be scrapped in favor of whatever half-assed plan I can think up in the next few minutes.

NA
 
Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

Mike B. said:


What right does anyone have to tell Pol Pot that he was wrong?


The right is an individuals right. It needs no permission from others. We still can have independent thought, right?
People can have opinions.
And BTW squirrels are rodents.

Do you feel bad in stepping on an ant? How about scorpions? Swatting those pesky mosquitoes? You are an A_U_P wannabe.
 
Kashyapa said:
When is war going to finally produce results? Pragmatism now. When's the last dictator going to fall, the last murderer executed, the last disturbance quelled? When is war going to produce peace?

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Milosevic etc.
It's like the arcade "Wack-A-Mole" game.
Why don't free people just give up?
It's because we are free and intend to keep it that way.
Sorry about the squirrel. Shoot a deer and it'll all be put into perspective. :D :D :D
 
So when's the game end, smart guy? I notice you're very quick to insult me, but very slow to answer my simple question.

And what IS an AUP wannabe?
 
NoZed Avenger said:
Crime is still with us - obviously lets do away with police and all law. I mean, it hasn't given us a crime-free society so "clearly" it is useless and should be scrapped in favor of whatever half-assed plan I can think up in the next few minutes.

NA

I would view police and law as effective- I mean, look to Baghdad for an example of what happens when there is none of either. I'm not asking for a timeframe for total tranquility and peace- just no wars. It's undeniable that there would be occasional little spats of violence, but when will we have won? When will the righteous and responsible US finally vanquish the world's dictators?

Come on....tell me!
 
Kashyapa said:
Answer the question, Skeptic. When is war going to finally produce results?

Why don’t you show the same courtesy he showed you and address his refutations of your post? I’m anxious to see how a bed-wetter such as yourself deals with logic.
 
Bed-wetter? Wow, how mature. Clearly you're a man of breeding and education. :rolleyes: My respect for you and your views just went down to near-zero; I will respect a man who disagrees with me, but not if he acts like a child.

I'm asking you guys to answer a simple question. Since you're obviously so much wiser and less naive than I am, you must have an answer. Because if war works, there must be a time when it actually does. Otherwise....it doesn't work.

So tell me, smart guy with all the answers. And this IS logic. For a solution to a problem to be a true solution, it must solve the problem.
 
Kashyapa said:

I'm asking you guys to answer a simple question. Since you're obviously so much wiser and less naive than I am, you must have an answer. Because if war works, there must be a time when it actually does. Otherwise....it doesn't work.


Why dont you address Skeptic's refutations? Come on bedwetter, I dare you.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

Supercharts said:


The right is an individuals right. It needs no permission from others. We still can have independent thought, right?
People can have opinions.
And BTW squirrels are rodents.

Do you feel bad in stepping on an ant? How about scorpions? Swatting those pesky mosquitoes? You are an A_U_P wannabe.

Hey Supercharts...chill man...

You missed my point. I was being sarcastic. I was showing how the "What right do we have...?" argument is a real logical dead end.

:)

Or maybe you are being sarcastic...:cool:
 
Tony said:


Why dont you address Skeptic's refutations? Come on bedwetter, I dare you.

What next? Neener neener neener? Calling me a big poopiehead? Please. Grow up. For the sake of your own dignity, figure out another way to express yourself.

I've read the letter that Osama wrote to the West. It's available on the internet. The entire thing is a diatribe against our having troops in the middle east, our imposition of Christian values on the world, and our hypocritical, diseased culture. He's just as full of s--t as the rest of the world, but I highly doubt he would be as pissed as he was if the West had treated the Middle East in an egalitarian manner. Our behavior to most of the world (that which isn't European and origin, and now even to some of Europe) has been elitist, possessive, "we know best", and deeply, deeply unfair. We fund Israel with billions a year while the Palestinian refugee camps crumble. No peace accord between the Israelis and Palestinians has ever been reached, and the US doesn't care. We lauch airstrikes against some regimes with WMD (Iraq), ignore others (North Korea, China), and encourage yet more (Israel). Our foreign policy and the wars we fight are so obviously biased towards the business interests of US companies (here's your contract, Brown & Root and Halliburton, both of whom are deeply connected with Cheney and the Bush family). We cloak them in highfalutin' ideals that we obviously don't care about, such as human rights, while ignoring human rights violations all over the world in countries who are vital trading partners or allies. Think I'm making this up? I'm not- this is all mentioned in Osama's letter and other anti-American writing.

And then we have the arrogance, the pure shortsightedness, to wonder why the world hates us. It's our freedom, we decide. They're terrified of our ideals. Perhaps true, but it's been made obvious that they hate our lies, unfairness, out-of-control profit lust, and hypocricy more.

Now that I've refuted Skeptic's arguments, it's put up or shut up time, Tony. Answer the question I asked. I TRIPLE DOG dare you.

*Cocks an ear, listening to the chirping of the crickets*
 
Kashyapa said:



Now that I've refuted Skeptic's arguments, it's put up or shut up time, Tony. Answer the question I asked.




You didnt refute s--t, you just rehashed the same dribble all of us have heard before. Let me help you, here are Skeptic's responses to your bedwetting babble.


Skeptic's responses are in normal type, your writing is bold.


We oppose force with force, take an eye for an eye, revenge our dead by creating more. Instead of perpetuating the endless cycle, why not try combating hate with love, war with peace?

Because it's know as "appeasement" and it never worked. The sole result of "loving" and "understanding the motives" of terrorists is more terrorism.

Remember Hitler? Only when he was opposed by "an eye for an eye, revenging the dead by creating more", was he stopped. As long as Chamberline&co. tried "understanding" him, he just got stronger and of course created ever more mischief.

Why do the terrorists hate us? Because for the last hundred years, we've been at nearly endless war, trying to impose what we think is right on the world,

Indeed. What right did the US have to tell Hitler that killing millions of people isn't right, or to the USSR that trying to take over western europe and enslave it as well is bad.

Who says that a world-wide rule of radical Islam, setting it all back to the 7th century, is "bad"? What is "bad" anyway? Who knows? Who decides? This is SO philosophical...

The truth is, this attitude is--in a word--racist. It is of course horrible and evil for Hitler or Stalin to butcher and enslave, and it was fine for the US to stop them--since the victims were Europeans. But when it is Saddam or Ho Chi Min that murder and enslave, it's suddenly just "part of their culture" that the US has "no right" to stop, because it's just "imposing what the US considers right" on the world.

Why? Because, you know, Bin Laden & co. are just opressing foreigners, people with dark skins and fuuny clothes, that don't speak anything LIKE English. Who knows if these weird people don't ENJOY being ruled by dictatorial madmen? Perhaps they like it? The madmen in charge keep telling us that they are ruling by their people's will, so it has to be true!

sowing the seeds of hate and pain all around us. Don't delude yourself by saying that they "hate that we have a free society".

It's not a delusion.

There is nothing more dangerous for dictatorships than the free exchange of ideas and criticism. This is why the USSR, for example, used to improsion and kill, not only those who forcefully opposed it, but poets and writers as well. The fact that, in the US, people can actually criticize the religion or beliefs, or the actions, of those in charge without being shot dead is something Bin Laden and his friends fear far more than they fear the US military force.

It was often the case that a dictatorial regime was bombed or had its citizens killed by an opposing force and survived to tell the tale (the Iraq-Iran war, or for that matter, most "third world" wars, such as those in Africa, are between two dictatorships.) But not ONE dictatorial regime EVER survived giving its people the freedom to vote and speak their mind more than a couple of weeks. Once you get that, it's OVER.

THIS--the freedom America represents--is what they hate the most, not because of philosophical differences, but because it is the democracies' secret weapon, the trump card that will destroy the Bin Ladens of the world, like it destroyed Stalin's USSR, if the people they opress ever get a whiff of it. They have good reason to fear American freedom more than American bombs!

They hate us because of our heavy handedness, our willingness to f*ck with other nation's affairs, to create little Alis in the name of our values, to bomb cities and wedding parties.

Funny, though, how the Afghanis--despite having a wedding party bombed by mistake by American troops--still welcomed the Americans as Liberators in Kabul and were quite glad that the Taliban are out. Perhaps it had someting to do with the fact that, as sad as the bombing of the wedding party was, it was accidental, unlike the Taliban's killing of anybody, in a wedding party or not, who dares not to agree with them.

They hate us because we presume that our way is best and that everyone should be like us

Yes, a free country where criticizing the government is possible without getting your hand cut off or worse. Disgusting, this awful cultural imperialism.

Of course, nobody ever complains that the US decided in WWII that the Germans and French DO need to "be like the United States" and be released from Hitler's opression. It's just when the US tries to help non-Europeans that the left protests: for all we know, these little brown and yellow-skinned people actually LIKE living in opression and fear, as their government's official propaganda repeatedly says.

Remind me to use the same principle if I ever witness, say, a husband trying to kill his wife. If he is white, I will call the cops. But if he is (say) Indian or Morrocan, I'll just move on; after all, who am I to impose MY western values on HIS traditional ones? Who says it's BETTER not to kill your wife than to do so? I don't want to be accused of "cultural imperialism" here, you see...

The only way out is peace. If the entire war budget had been devoted to building universities, schools, infrastructure, and perpetuating love, the world would be a better place.

...until some Bin Laden or Hitler who DID spend his money on weapons smacks his lips and decides to take over the now-defensless country. (Jesus Christ, how naive can you GET?)

The war hasn't changed anything but a regime. Why not change the minds and hearts of millions?

Changing the Regime DID change the hearts and minds of millions. It freed the Iraqis of living in daily terror and squalor, and their relief is quite visible as they kiss US troops. Building schools and hospitals for the Iraqis without changing the regime would have done nothing, since Saddam would simply have stolen it and used it to buy tanks and pay his secret police, as he did with most of the aid he got from the "oil-for-food" program.

Why not fund AIDS treatment for all the infected poor of Africa?Why not send our nation's youth out to do service work in less fortunate parts of the world?

The US IS doing that. Of course, not being a socialist country, it cannot FORCE anybody to go, which is why the peace corps don't include many people.

But a much, MUCH more important reason why not too many people are doing that, is that these areas are usually ruled by despotic regimes, which means that every aid given to the counry--any help against AIDS, for sanitation, etc., and all these other noble ideas--is simply stolen by the ruling regimes and used to buy them luxury mansions and pay for their military's weapons as their people starve.

You REALLY want to help Africa? Start by changing "only the regime" in about twenty countries. Send in the Marines, hang the local dictator from the nearest lamppost, to make sure nobody steals the food. THEN you could start talking about helping the poor, since then there is a chance the help will actually reach them.

Let's promote an open and tolerant and free society.

But you don't want to do THAT. That's cultural imperialism,
remember? Besides, promoting tolerant and free societies usually involves getting rid of the local despot first, which usually requires force, which of course is a no-no.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on how to really defeat terrorism- an essay from the heart

The right is an individuals right. It needs no permission from others. We still can have independent thought, right?
People can have opinions.


Whoa, Nellie! "Mike B" was being sarcastic. He meant precisely that we DO have the right to tell Pol Pot not to kill people.
 
Ahh, Tony! I see you're as eloquent and refined as always. It's a pleasure to debate with a man of your reasoned opinons, which you express with such urbanity:

"You didnt refute s--t, you just rehashed the same dribble all of us have heard before. Let me help you, here are Skeptic's responses to your bedwetting babble."

Prove that I'm wrong. Tell me when your way is going to work. I've presented you with evidence straight from our enemy's poison pen that refutes that they hate us strictly because we have democracy. Tell me when it is that war is finally going to start bringing about peace. I said it before and I'll say it again: put up or shut up, you noisy little boy-man who can't express himself without sounding like a furious ten-year-old. If you must insult me, please try to think of something other than "bedwetter." It's getting old.

*Crickets keep chirping*
 

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