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Those on the right, define "socialism" and "socialist"..

RandFan

Mormon Atheist
RandFan
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Dec 18, 2001
Messages
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The purpose of this thread is to end the equivocation of the words "socialism" and "socialist". When you accuse Obama of being a "socialist" or trying to enact "socailism" what do you mean? Are you using the Wikipedia or Dictionary definition of the word? If so can you justify it's usage?

I really don't care how you do it but do it in a a way that is consistent and justifies its use while accusing democrats and liberals of being socialists.

I think that currently the use of the word is purely for propaganda purposes. It provides no real information. It is in fact an equivocation, whether that use is deliberate or not doesn't matter.

So please, step up to the plate. Tell us what your definition of the words are and then justify your use of them to apply to Obama and Democrats?

Premises:

  1. The proposition that it's a straw man to argue that those on the right are against any and all social programs has been claimed.
  2. The proposition that labeling everyone "socialist" is a lie has been claimed.
Questions:

  1. Assuming premise 1 & 2 why is Obama a socialist because he advocates social programs and policies while others who do so are not?
  2. Are you against any and all social programs?
  3. If you are not, which social programs do you support and why does your support not make you a socialist (if you don't thin Obama is a socialist you can ignore this question)?
  4. If advocating social programs makes one a socialist after a given point, at what point is that (how do you draw the line)?
 
Good luck getting a straight answer out of our resident right-wingers. I tried, some time ago, and got the usual horsecrap as elsewhere.
 
It sort of comes down to: is it done by a Democrat? Socialism! Rick Perry? Good business! Just look at the thread about Perry and his business grants. Texas government buying shares into Texas startups.

"Government Motors" writ large across Texas. Socialism? Nope!
 
My response to this topic is always a reference to Orwell's "Politics and the English Language". "Socialism" is even given as an example of what he calls "meaningless words".

I'll give just a shortened excerpt this time, but reading the entire section on "Meaningless words" is spot on (my bolding):

Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another.... Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.
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JoeTheJuggler said:
My response to this topic is always a reference to Orwell's "Politics and the English Language". "Socialism" is even given as an example of what he calls "meaningless words".

I'll give just a shortened excerpt this time, but reading the entire section on "Meaningless words" is spot on (my bolding):

Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another.... Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.
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Awesome, thanks. I'm a big fan of Orwell, I almost went by OrwellFan.
 
Chaos said:
Good luck getting a straight answer out of our resident right-wingers. I tried, some time ago, and got the usual horsecrap as elsewhere.
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I've no illusions. I want to refer back to this thread in the future. I know it's of limited value but that's life.
 
bikerdruid said:
i started a thread a while ago, asking,"who is 'the left'?"
none of those that use the term daily would answer.
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When I said I wasn't a Republican a couple of posters took me to task for admitting I my affiliation. As if that is some deep dark secret. B.S.
 
Socialism = Democrat politicies/ideas, no matter what they are.

Socialists = Democrats.
 
Tricky said:
"Conservative - n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary
​
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I finally got around to downloading that from Project Gutenberg to keep on my Kindle. Ambrose Bierce works well in the 21st Century.
 
What's socialist? Pretty much everything to a certain extent... it comes in many flavors. "Socialist" is way too broad to define one brush of character and for all practical purposes Obama, European nations, and the likes of Chavez, and similar are all socialist, but of entirely different kinds. Obama may not be a great president in my opinion, but he isn't a Chavez by any stretch of the imagination (whom I consider a raving lunatic).

It's one of the examples where the use of the terms needs a well defined context if it's going to be used to talk about a person's politics. There's no solid threshold that suddenly makes you something
 
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