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Those kooky gymnasts

epepke said:
I agree. The assertion seems to be that Tee-Young was erroneously docked one-tenth of a point based on the difficulty of a move. But isn't it up to the judges to judge the difficulty of a move?

No.

The gymnastic organization (whatever it is) has compiled a list of all gymnastic manouvers and assigned a diffculty rating for each. A competitor tells the judges what he or she intends to do, and they go over that list to compute the starting value. [Edited to add: I was wrong, the program is not submitted before the competition, but that doesn't change the case that there is a standardized difficulty assignment]

Then, during the competition another group of judges watches the execution and deducts points for each mistake. These deductions are also standardised but in some cases the judges have to decide whether an error was really made or not.
 
LW said:
Well, newspapers here quote Hamm as saying (warning: translation of a translation) that he won't give it back because "he really felt that he was the winner". In my opinion, this is what makes him look bad.

I don't doubt that it looks bad for Hamm, and I do agree it would be good sportsmanship on Hamm's part to give up the medal if he truly believed he didn't deserve it. My objection though is that the IGF is trying to shift the focus from their mistake to Hamm's sportsmanship when the athlete's only control over the medal awarding is their personal performance in the arena.


LW said:

The scoring mistake was clear, the Koreans made a notification during the event but were told by the officials that they have to give it after the event. Then, after the event other officials say to them that the formal complaint should have been made during it.

Certainly a tragedy of miscommunication and rules knowledge. I applaud the IGF for sacking the judges and taking steps to rectify the matter as best they can in the future so that no athlete has this happen to them again. I abhor them for pressuring Hamm to give up his medal in an official letter though when it is clearly not Hamm's mistake.


LW said:

Out of the three officials that were sacked on this one was an American and another lives there. I perceive a conflict of interests.

Understandable, but at the same time the high and low scores are thrown out to help alleviate this problem. I would argue that the current political climate doesn't necessarily foster a general positive American sentiment though either, so there are arguments on both sides of that fence. The governing body is the one responsible for making the judges as impartial as reasonably possible.
 
Didn't see it mentioned.

The judges screwed up twice on the Korean's event. 1st, with the 1 point-lower-than-it-should-have-been score, and then by missing a 2 point deduction for his extra hold on the apparatus.

So had everything been judged properly, he would have gotten a LOWER score.
 
For the record.

I think mIlli Vanilli shouldve kept there grammies too,.
 
Phrost said:

The judges screwed up twice on the Korean's event. 1st, with the 1 point-lower-than-it-should-have-been score, and then by missing a 2 point deduction for his extra hold on the apparatus.

If that is true, then certainly Hamm should be the correct winner. Not a single one of Finnish articles on the subject have mentioned anything like that.
 
Tmy said:
For the record.

I think mIlli Vanilli shouldve kept there grammies too,.


Does it really make a difference who "wins" aside from the participents? I thought that people watched this stuff to see superb athletes perform?
 
LW said:
The gymnastic organization (whatever it is) has compiled a list of all gymnastic manouvers and assigned a diffculty rating for each. A competitor tells the judges what he or she intends to do, and they go over that list to compute the starting value. [Edited to add: I was wrong, the program is not submitted before the competition, but that doesn't change the case that there is a standardized difficulty assignment.

Then, during the competition another group of judges watches the execution and deducts points for each mistake. These deductions are also standardised but in some cases the judges have to decide whether an error was really made or not.

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand it, based on what I've seen in the press. It seems to me that, if the program is not submitted before the competition, it's a bit like Uri Geller not specifying what he's going to do to your clocks beforehand.

Please bear with me. I'm trying. But when I was a kid, I used to throw baseballs to other people. I wasn't very good at it. However, once, thinking that the catcher wanted a fast ball, I tried to throw one and would up throwing an excellent slow ball. It turned out that the catcher actually wanted a slow ball and I had misread the signals.

Did Tee Young want to do a geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plonker, and the judge saw it as such, but punched in the wrong number?

Or did the judge look at it and conclude that it was really a hamfisted codswallop persnickity whomp, which is worth 0.1 fewer points but punched in the right number for what he and/or she judged it to be?

If the former, then I can see the point in objecting. If the latter, then I can't, unless it's really egregious, in which case there should be some sort of appeal process. In any event, it seems that the problem would be that of the judges and the Olympic committee, and a demand that someone give a medal back amounts to a demand for a big FU for the Olympics.

Unfortunately, although perhaps a gymnastics expert might, I haven't been able to make a distinction from reading the papers.
 
Did Tee Young want to do a geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plonker, and the judge saw it as such, but punched in the wrong number?

This is the closer one.

The way gymnastics works, before the athlete performs the routine, he submits that he is doing geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plonker. Basically, a "perfect" geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plonker gets a 10.0 score based on difficulty.

Athletes don't always do 10.0 routines though. They sometimes do hamfisted codswallop persnickity whomp, which when done perfectly, scores a 9.8 max. The risk is a lot lower though, so there is less chance he'll screw it up, but because it is less difficult, judges start their top score at a lesser value.

His geeblefist was too far to the left though, so he got a judge's interpretation of the standard deduction of .1, so ordinarily he would have gotten a 9.9, because it's risky and starts at a 10.0 theoretical maximum.

The error occurred though, in that before the athlete performed, the judges thought a "perfect" geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plonker is worth only a 9.9. So instead of getting a 9.9 like he should have, he got scored down to a 9.8.

Throw in the US team's contention that he did 4 plonkers instead of the 3, which would normally be a .2 deduction that the judges totally missed, and you have a huge mess on your hands.

There is a way to protest this, but according to the rules, the protest has to be filed before the next event (which occurs just minutes after the event in question). There is some controversy as to when the first Korean's tried to protest, but the official protest didn't come until two days later, well beyond what the rules state.

There are reasons for keeping protests timely, as in the next event, if Hamm knew he needed another .2 to win instead of .1, he might have tried a harder routine or the Korean might have done an easier one knowing he had a bigger cushion (well, probably not, but theoretically there is that option).
 
I didn't see reports that the Koreans DID lodge a proper protest both during and after the event, just the IGF's ruling that they *failed* to do so during the proper time within the event.

In any case, while I could wish that Hamm would make a magnanimous gesture to the Korean competitor, I don't blame him in the least for his choice not to.

And I am apparently not the only one who feels that the IGF is acting despicably by trying to make Hamm the villain here:

http://sports.yahoo.com/oly/news;_y...-usoclettertofig&prov=usatoday_wire&type=lgns
 
Furious said:
The way gymnastics works, before the athlete performs the routine, he submits that he is doing geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plonker. Basically, a "perfect" geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plonker gets a 10.0 score based on difficulty.

Thanks for the explanation. I still am wondering, though. LW seems to me to be saying that the submission isn't done until after the event.

What I'm wondering about is this. The athlete does something that looks to the judge exactly like a hamfisted codswallop persnickty whomp. Then, after this happens, the paper that they submit says that he was really trying to do a geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plunker, maybe even with a nostril pushoff to the moon, Alice!

It seems to me that, if a perfect execution of a hamfisted codswallop persnickty whomp, when interpreted as an imperfect execution of a geeblefisted kerwhillikie gumball plunker instead, gets a higher score, then there is something broken with the rating system.

All this would go away if the submission were done before the event. Not doing the target routine would be judged harshly by the mistakes judging team, and all would be right with the world.
 
Furious said:
This is why timed events kick serious butt over judged events (my scorn is also directed at figure skating and boxing btw).

How many marathon medals have been in contention based on a judge's ruling?

Or basketball games, for that matter?

(1972 anyone?)
 
pgwenthold said:
Or basketball games, for that matter?

(1972 anyone?)

While I agree with this sentiment and agree that the "judges" in basketball and other timed team sports can affect the outcome rather than athletes, the degree to which officiating affects the final score is significantly less than the sports I mentioned.

The officiating has an impact on a vast minority of a basketball game, whereas gymnastic scoring is centrally based around judges interpretations, and there are safeguards in place to account for that, such as using more officials (usually seven judges are used as opposed to basketballs two) and throwing out the high and low scores.

I'm probably splitting hairs over this, but you have an example from 30 years ago, whereas it seems gymnastics and figure skating perpetually has judging controversy. :p
 
Phrost said:
Didn't see it mentioned.

The judges screwed up twice on the Korean's event. 1st, with the 1 point-lower-than-it-should-have-been score, and then by missing a 2 point deduction for his extra hold on the apparatus.

So had everything been judged properly, he would have gotten a LOWER score.

eh, I'm sure if you looked at the video tape of all of Hamm's performances you could nitpick and find deductions they missed. So then he looses, or maybe not if they missed more on the Korean's side...

Anyway, this seems to be an error of the clerical type as opposed to judgement type, which makes it more black and white in regards to fixing or changing it.
 
nelsondogg said:
eh, I'm sure if you looked at the video tape of all of Hamm's performances you could nitpick and find deductions they missed. So then he looses, or maybe not if they missed more on the Korean's side...

Anyway, this seems to be an error of the clerical type as opposed to judgement type, which makes it more black and white in regards to fixing or changing it.
My understanding is these are not nitpicking, but obvious misses, like when a boxer gets knocked down, he may only score 8 for a round he loses. Point well-taken, still, but it's not quite that simple.
 
nelsondogg said:

Anyway, this seems to be an error of the clerical type as opposed to judgement type, which makes it more black and white in regards to fixing or changing it.

? They both sound like errors of judgement to me.
 
LW said:
If that is true, then certainly Hamm should be the correct winner. Not a single one of Finnish articles on the subject have mentioned anything like that.
It's true. The Today show was showing the replay ad nauseum the other day. The Korean had 4 "holds" in his routine, you're only allowed 3. Should have been a mandatory 2 tenths deduction, and it wasn't deducted. So he didn't get screwed out of the gold, whoever finished 4th got screwed out of the bronze medal.

But it's fun to watch Hamm defend his medal in his little elfin voice. :D

But hey, more beach volleyball pics!

b01082504_01.jpg
 

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