Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

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DOC said:
I didn't say where were these sites countered, I said where were they discredited.
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That's a rather silly distinction, considering that the posts I referenced do both. Indeed, the fact that you would make it indicates to me that you neither read those posts nor read the links those posts referred you to. If you had you would have seen
Ducky said:
This LOC display was dealt with in posts past, though I am sure you would have us believe it wasn't.

Do you know anything about this exhibit, DOC? When did it take place? Who put it together? Can you answer these questions, DOC? I'd bet you would find a world of answers about someone at the LOC who overstepped quite a bit to cherry pick their display that way.

James H Huston, who put together the display in 1998 seems to be on the record elsewhere with the same agenda you have, however seems to have no substinative way to back it up but with cherrypicked displays and ignored data. Here is a critique of his event you are so fond of repeating. Huston is slammed for sidestepping inconvenient data to his display, such as slavery and the religious status of african americans. It is hardly impartial in any way, and Exhibits at the LOC do not have insulation from such types of dishonest spinning. Interesting you would quote his display, and not cite direct sources to support your view. Perhaps Huston ignored the same data you would prefer to.
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In the first link of his post, a quote from Huston is provided
“There was a wide variety of opinion on a wide variety of subjects. But the subjects on which there was a kind of consensus emerged very clearly . . . . I have found no one among the Founders who didn't believe in Providence being actively at work, who didn't believe that religion was vital for social well-being, who didn't believe in liberty of conscience.”
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but we know jefferson said
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
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Since Jefferson was clearly not in line with Huston's statement, and there is no shortage of proof of Jefferson's questioning of religion in respect to society, it is clear that Huston has intentionally misrepresented the whole of the founding father's views. This is clear indication that Huston is discredited and as such any work of his regarding this subject does not stand as a sole source.

DOC said:
Translation: they weren't discredited.
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I'm sorry, but this is a false statement.
 
joobz said:
Since Jefferson was clearly not in line with Huston's statement, and there is no shortage of proof of Jefferson's questioning of religion in respect to society, it is clear that Huston has intentionally misrepresented the whole of the founding father's views. This is clear indication that Huston is discredited and as such any work of his regarding this subject does not stand as a sole source.
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I see nowhere in the quotes you provided that Jefferson did not believe Providence was actively at work. Thus I still do not see where the LOC websites have been discredited, and even if there was a few debatable facts in the exhibit that wouldn't discredit the entire exhibit.

Also, Jefferson's regular church attendance in the Capitol building as was pointed out earlier, shows his support for religion being an important part of society (even if some of his views on Christ were different from mainstream Christianity).
 
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DOC said:
I see nowhere in the quotes you provided that Jefferson did not believe Providence was actively at work.
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This sentence is nebulous and therefore holds no meaning.

the quote was that Huston.
I have found no one among the Founders who didn't believe in Providence being actively at work, who didn't believe that religion was vital for social well-being, who didn't believe in liberty of conscience.”
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It is clear that Jefferson holds no respect for religion. Perhaps faith, but definitely not religion.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
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Therefore, my argument stands, as the LOC exhibit is discredited.
 
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joobz said:
It is clear that Jefferson holds no respect for religion. Perhaps faith, but definitely not religion.
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I've heard Paul Crouch, president and founder of the the World's largest Christian TV network, bad mouth the spirit of religiosity. I also heard someone (I believe it was Crouch but I can't remember for sure) on that network say religion can send you to hell, so Crouch and some other Christians would be in agreement with Jefferson on that issue.

But once again, Jefferson's regular attendance at Church in the Capitol building shows his public support for the principles of Christianity and its importance to society.
 
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DOC said:
I've heard Paul Crouch, president and founder of the the World's largest Christian TV network, bad mouth the spirit of religiosity. I also heard someone (I believe it was Crouch but I can't remember for sure) on that network say religion can send you to hell, so Crouch and some other Christians would be in agreement with Jefferson on that issue.

But once again, Jefferson's regular attendance at Church in the Capitol building shows his public support for the principles of Christianity and its importance to society.
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There is no comparison
Jefferson was quite clear that he was against religious influences in state. Unless Paul Crouch is against religion being involved in government, there is no comparison between jefferson and him.

Also, Jefferson wasn't against religion, only that it should have it's influence kept in check.
 
DOC, shall I assume that you agree that something sponsored by the government doesn't automatically make it correct?

If you agree with that statement, can I also assume, that since I proved that the Exhibit's designer makes false claims of the founding fathers that his exhibit becomes highly suspect in it's truthfulness?



IF you disagree with my first statement, than can I assume that you agree with evolution, since it is the position of the national science foundation and national institutes of health that evolution is real and verified?
 
joobz said:
DOC, shall I assume that you agree that something sponsored by the government doesn't automatically make it correct?

If you agree with that statement, can I also assume, that since I proved that the Exhibit's designer makes false claims of the founding fathers that his exhibit becomes highly suspect in it's truthfulness?
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And as I alluded to before, the fact that you (I don't) believe one or two facts are wrong does not discredit the whole large exhibit with its multiple hand written documents. The Library of Congress Exhibit on Religion and the Founding of the American Republic can be found at these sites.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

And I called you out on it in post 1984 and asked you where the quotes you provided showed Jefferson did not believe Providence was actively at work to prove that the curator was mistaken, and you responded in post 1985 with "Your question is Nebulous so meaningless". I'm of the opinion that that is dodging the question.



DOC, please refrain from repeatedly re-posting the same links, because it's beginning to appear that you're flooding the thread. All you need to do is reference the fact that you've given those links in other posts, and if asked, give the post number.

Thank you.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jmercer
 
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DOC said:
And I called you out on it in post 1984 and asked you where the quotes you provided showed Jefferson did not believe Providence was actively at work to prove that the curator was mistaken, and you responded in post 1985 with "Your question is Nebulous so meaningless". I'm of the opinion that that is dodging the question.
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Fair enough. Allow me to explain.

1.) what is meant by Providence? It's a statement that I can't challenge because it's sufficiently vague as to be open to multiple interpretations. As such, I do not challenge the Providence part of the quote. Your forcing the providence part of the quote is a missdirection and not at all relavent to my claim.

2.) You will see that the quote clearly says that ""I have found no one among the Founders who didn't believe in Providence being actively at work, who didn't believe that religion was vital for social well-being, who didn't believe in liberty of conscience.”

Notice the bolded statement? Notice how Jefferson quite clearly held contempt for organized religion? It's clear that the bolded statement is a lie.

From the link that US had provided:
http://www.au.org/site/News2?abbr=pr...s_iv_ctrl=1507
Elsewhere the letter states that Hutson's analysis, which was not subjected to peer review, "yields an unbalanced treatment of this important topic on the basis of questionable analysis" and that "the essay depends upon a flawed premise...."​
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​
Bolding mine.
DOC, this exhibit is a joke. Your wish to use it as some proof of arugment is a joke. To continue to use such flawed sources only hurts your credibility.
 
joobz said:
DOC, this exhibit is a joke. Your wish to use it as some proof of arugment is a joke. To continue to use such flawed sources only hurts your credibility.
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You're assuming he has any credibility left. He hasn't. And he doesn't understand it, because he lacks the brain to do that. All he wants is to keep spreading his Lies For Jesus.
 
DOC said:
OK, I guess you have the right to feel the Library of Congress exhibit is a joke.
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Yup, that I do. It's a right I have given to me by the Secular United States government. No religion has a right to dictate what reality is. I am not obligated to take anything at face value and am encouraged to seek the truth.

I just wish more people exercised this right bestowed upon americans by the secular constitution and the progressively secular minded founding fathers.
 
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