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This Whole Debt Limit Thing

Who has been the most unreasonable on this whole debt limit thing?

  • Congressional Democrats

    Votes: 11 6.2%

  • Congressional Republicans

    Votes: 139 78.1%

  • Obama

    Votes: 10 5.6%

  • They have all been equally unreasonable.

    Votes: 18 10.1%
  • Total voters
    178
  • Poll closed .
BeAChooser said:
You will find posts by me that prove quite clearly that Bush's Tax cuts significantly helped the economy ... that GDP grew an average of 3.5% a year during much of his tenure as a direct result of those tax cuts.
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Well of course. If you just claim it.

Oops.....

http://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/usgdp/result.phpOoops.... (You have to enter 2001 start and 2009 end.)

Goddamn facts.

You're asking a question that I've already answered. If you're not going to take the time to read this relatively short thread in order to get up to speed, I'm going to ignore you. I'll just view you as the buzzing of insects.
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Yep, make unproven claims, declare that you won the argument and give yourself a smarmy self righteous reason not to have to address questions and pesky facts. Well played my friend. Well played. Sorry I won't see ya around these parts. But, you know those facts are damn pesky things.
 
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Bri said:
You have yet to quote any Democrat who used the word "promise" or "guarantee" to describe the projection in the memo. If a Democrat has used those terms, they would be just as wrong as Republicans who use those terms. Your statement is still wrong. Again, you said:

And the economists that supported the stimulus, which I imagine includes most of the economists you might name, promised us that it would keep unemployment under 8%. FAIL.​

The only ones I know of who projected the 8% figure were Christina Romer and Jared Bernstein, the authors of the memo in question. And that projection came with disclaimers and certainly wasn't a "promise" or a "guarantee."



Did you listen to the video you referenced?

We worked with a lot of forecasters, both private and public to get a sense of what do you think the effect of government spending is, what do you think the effect of a tax cut is, and put them into the computer and simulate what do we think is going to come out of this, what do we think it's likely to do to GDP, what's that likely to do to jobs, and the important finding there is that we do think it will create probably somewhere between three and four million jobs.​

That sure doesn't sound like a promise or a guarantee to me.

-Bri
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You are wasting your breath. He already knows those projections were based on faulty numbers provided by the Bush administration and that unemployment was already higher than 8% when the stimulus was passed and nearly 9% before any money from it started to flow.

http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=LN_cpsbref3
 
gdp.gif


Source

Plug THAT into Ryan's plan BAC.
 
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BeAChooser said:
If you insist on debating only via parsing and semantics, there's not much more to debate.
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Of course, the words "promised" or "guaranteed" are quite different than "projected." So you're admitting that you and Republicans are wrong to use the word "promised" and "guaranteed" to describe the projection?

The fact is that most democrats were led to believe that the stimulus was going to stop unemployment from going above 8%. The fact is that few (if any) pro-Obama economists came out to challenge that assertion. Their silence was a form of concurrence.
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Sure, because most at the time agreed with the projection, which was based on available (but imperfect) data from multiple sources (as are most economic projections). So what? Are you really that surprised that economic projections are sometimes wrong? Or are you just feigning surprise because it fits your narrative?

-Bri
 
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RandFan said:
Oops.....
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And what specific point are you trying to make with this handwaving?

RandFan said:
http://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/usgdp/result.phpOoops.... (You have to enter 2001 start and 2009 end.)
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Again, what specific point are you trying to make? I'm not going to formulate your red herring for you, RF.

RandFan said:
Yep, make unproven claims
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LIAR. I proved what I said. And I previously answered exactly the question you asked. If you are too lazy to read this thread, I can't help you. I'm not bringing out the baby bottle.
 
BeAChooser said:
And what specific point are you trying to make with this handwaving?
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That the economy never grew at 3.5% during the Bush presidency.

Again, what specific point are you trying to make?
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That the economy never grew at 3.5% during the Bush presidency.

LIAR. I proved what I said. And I previously answered exactly the question you asked. If you are too lazy to read this thread, I can't help you. I'm not bringing out the baby bottle.
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I posted the facts. Calling me a liar isn't going to help. The economy never grew at 3.5% during the Bush presidency.
 
RandFan said:
That the economy never grew at 3.5% during the Bush presidency.
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Well you'd better tell these folks:

http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/images_lessons/821_em821_figure11.jpg

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=real...Lc8TrjID4fYiAL70-DDBg&zoom=1&biw=1024&bih=690

http://www.fin.gc.ca/ec2006/images/ecc1_1e.gif

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth

Go ahead, RF, plug in the years from 2003 to 2006 (after the 2003 tax cut) into that last link and see what it tells you.

Or are you claiming that the Federal Government and left-leaning media have been lying to the public about the inflation rate? :D
 
RandFan said:
I posted the facts (AND THE SOURCE).
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And I posted facts and FOUR sources. :D

The only way your source is correct is if the Government and media have been lying to the American public. Do you want to go on record saying this? Because if you do, it has all sorts of implications with regards to other claims I noticed you've been making on various threads. ;)
 
BeAChooser said:
Because that's when democrats took over Congress, DUDE.
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Did they raise taxes? I thought lower taxes was what was needed. What did the Dems do? And WHY start at 2003? And will you be honest and admit that no year was 3.5%?
 
RandFan said:
And WHY start at 2003?
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Go ahead. Plug 2001 into the link I supplied. You'll get GDP growth rates of at least 2 percent after the first Bush tax cut. Far in excess of your 0.75% growth rate you claim. And for the record, go back and look at what I claimed and you'll see that I claimed the tax rate averaged about 3.5% for about 10 quarters after the 2003 tax cut. Now be honest, I wasn't wrong ... unless, of course, you want to claim the government and media have been lying about the inflation rate. Do you? :D
 
BeAChooser said:
Go ahead. Plug 2001 into the link I supplied. You'll get GDP growth rates of at least 2 percent after the first Bush tax cut. Far in excess of your 0.75% growth rate you claim. And for the record, go back and look at what I claimed and you'll see that I claimed the tax rate averaged about 3.5% for about 10 quarters after the 2003 tax cut. Now be honest, I wasn't wrong ... unless, of course, you want to claim the government and media have been lying about the inflation rate. Do you?
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I have hard data and I know how to perform calculations. You don't which is why you can't say how my data is wrong.

:D :p ;) :cool:
 
BeAChooser said:
Well you'd better tell these folks:

http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/images_lessons/821_em821_figure11.jpg

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=real...Lc8TrjID4fYiAL70-DDBg&zoom=1&biw=1024&bih=690

http://www.fin.gc.ca/ec2006/images/ecc1_1e.gif

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth

Go ahead, RF, plug in the years from 2003 to 2006 (after the 2003 tax cut) into that last link and see what it tells you.

Or are you claiming that the Federal Government and left-leaning media have been lying to the public about the inflation rate? :D
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:D :) ;) :confused: :rolleyes: :p :cool: :eye-poppi

Why won't you post the charts and/or data from the links as I do? Do you even know what your sources claim?
 
RandFan said:
I have hard data and I know how to perform calculations.
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So do I.

RandFan said:
you can't say how my data is wrong.
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But I have told you. You either aren't listening or you're afraid to admit the possibility that the government has been lying to the public about inflation rates. Perhaps you are afraid because then you'd be admitting that the Obama administration has been a party to that lie? :D
 
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