this is when i support the death penalty

Re: Re: Re: Re: You keep using that word ... Inigo ontoya

Victor Danilchenko said:
Brooklyn Dodger

That may be the case (arguable), but that doesn't affect the fact that what we call "justice" these days is to a large extent a systematized vengeance.

What is wrong with taking vengeance out of the hands of the individual?
 
Cain said:


I read the article too :)

No, I thought there were only two states that allowed death by firing squad, and Montana was one of them (which is wrong; there are three: Utah, OK, and Idaho).

Davefoc writes:



I was primarily talking about violence from convicted criminals against peaceful citizens. Murder committed inside these prisons, especially against guards, is cause for real concern (butt the same goes for rapes). What's the murder rate in prison? I'm sure a fair number are killed without any kind of weapon other than their barehands.

I stand corrected.
 
Victor,
I'm not following you. So, what, exactly, is your definition of Justice?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You keep using that word ... Inigo ontoya

Now we get to the meat of the problem. Why do we want systematized vengeance?

Because it is otherwise known as a "sense of justice", where those who do wrong are punished for their actions.

In fact, not taking revenge on criminals -- but merely doing the needful thing to prevent future crimes -- would be an important step towards a society that's more humane overall.

No it wouldn't. Not for the victims and their relatives. It would be a society where the future prospects of the criminal take precedent over the innocent blood of the victims.

On your view, there was no need for the Nuremberg war trials; after all, the victims were already dead, and it was quite unlikely the perpetrators--the generals, SS chiefs, etc.--would ever be in a position to kill anybody ELSE. Most of them, after all, were not personally violent. They just arranged the mass murders from behind their desks.

Surely people with such organizational ability could have been put to useful work in the reconstruction of Germany, for example; why waste their talent by executing them, merely to satisfy our "outdated" feelings of revenge?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You keep using that word ... Inigo ontoya

Victor Danilchenko said:
Skeptic

Now we get to the meat of the problem. Why do we want systematized vengeance? Just because we want to take revenge, doesn't mean that we should. In fact, not taking revenge on criminals -- but merely doing the needful thing to prevent future crimes -- would be an important step towards a society that's more humane overall.

That's what justice is. Unless we want to allow families of victims to exact retribution themselves.
 
Whomp

I'm not following you. So, what, exactly, is your definition of Justice?
I am not offering one. I am not invested in pursuing "justice, whatever the word means". I am interested in social policy that will better our society; and I don't think society is bettered by us enaging in systematic vengeance.

Now you can define rehabilitative/protective response to crime as "justice", and then I am for justice; or you can define vengeance as "justice", and then I am against justice. It's not the label that matters, but the policies I advocate or attack, and the reasons for such advocacy or attacks.
 
Skeptic, Dodger,

Justice doesn't necessarily mean vengeance. In fact, you won't find the word "vengeance" anywhere in the dictionary.com definition of "justice". Now this is what it might mean to some people, but this meaning is certainly not entailed by the word's actual usage; rather, I would say that it's incidental to it. What does seem to be essential to the concept of justice, is fairness; but fairness itself is partially defined in terms of justice, so we have somewhat of a circularity. "Justice" in this context appears to end up being a rather vague concept without a well-defined meaning.

Rejecting vengeance doesn't show disrespect or devaluation of victims' lives. It would only be so if vengeance itself was a morally necessitated reaction, but it would only be so if out society believes in justice as vengeance; which is to say that the argument about non-vengeful justice devaluing victims is totally, wholly circular. Non-vengeful justice only devalues victims if the society believes that vengeance is the appropriate ethical response to crime.
 
Victor Danilchenko said:
Whomp

I am not offering one. I am not invested in pursuing "justice, whatever the word means". I am interested in social policy that will better our society; and I don't think society is bettered by us enaging in systematic vengeance.

Now you can define rehabilitative/protective response to crime as "justice", and then I am for justice; or you can define vengeance as "justice", and then I am against justice. It's not the label that matters, but the policies I advocate or attack, and the reasons for such advocacy or attacks.

How does rehabilitation serve society better then execution?

Let's be honest, society's interests would be served if we killed about 3/4 of the people on earth. A few here and there, selected for by their own misdeeds isn't going to harm society in the least.
 
Malachi151

How does rehabilitation serve society better then execution?
In multiple ways. Most obviously, it returns a productive individual back into society. More subtly, the society that supports rehabilitation instead of execution, promotes valuation of human life -- not just the lives we like and approve of, but all lives. This sort of attitude is of course at the core of freedom -- the fact that freedom means freedom for others to do even something you dislike -- and so this sort of conceptualization of justice would further promote a zeitgeist of tolerance and freedom in society.

It's very easy to get enraged and bay for blood of an obvious monster; but that leads us to getting used to baying for blood, and so we bay for blood with less and less provocation, because we feel morally righteous when we do so. Eventually we end up having this blood-thirst manipulated by the unscrupulous individuals -- it's a foothold to get people to do evil with clear conscience and righteous disposition. It's been done countless times through history, and modernity is no exception.

Let's be honest, society's interests would be served if we killed about 3/4 of the people on earth.
Dude, what fscking planet are you from? :eek: :confused:

And how on earth can society's interests be best served by killing the majority of the population, if the said majority comprises the society in the first place, and thus their detriment will far outweigh whatever benefit the survivors derive, when considering whether such an action would be "good for society".

P.S. I betcha you consider yourself one of the 1/4 of the population that should survive...
 
Victor Danilchenko said:
Malachi151

In multiple ways. Most obviously, it returns a productive individual back into society. More subtly, the society that supports rehabilitation instead of execution, promotes valuation of human life -- not just the lives we like and approve of, but all lives. This sort of attitude is of course at the core of freedom -- the fact that freedom means freedom for others to do even something you dislike -- and so this sort of conceptualization of justice would further promote a zeitgeist of tolerance and freedom in society.

Why do we need more productive individuals? There are over 6 billion people on earth, the loss of an individual in no way degrades society. The existance of the individual serves as competition for resources among other individuals. So, the ex-murder get a job at the plant while some guy trying to support his family goes another week w/o pay... hmm...

Does it really support valuation of life, or does it degrade the lives of the victems?

My idea of freedom is freedom to do anything that does not directly harm others. Murder is a direct harm to others. By doing it you break the social contract that grants individual freedom. You are free to do whatever you want, just don't kill people.

It's very easy to get enraged and bay for blood of an obvious monster; but that leads us to getting used to baying for blood, and so we bay for blood with less and less provocation, because we feel morally righteous when we do so. Eventually we end up having this blood-thirst manipulated by the unscrupulous individuals -- it's a foothold to get people to do evil with clear conscience and righteous disposition. It's been done countless times through history, and modernity is no exception.

I don't approach this as an issue of rage or revenge, simply a breach of contract that grants life. We can't remove people from society, its impossible. If we could then I would accept that, but we can't, except through death. I don't think that lethal injection for people who commit murder is a bloodlust, its simply a matter of taking care of business. You killed someone for no reason, then okay, well we will kill you cause you have proven yourself unworthly of life in society.

Dude, what fscking planet are you from? :eek: :confused:

And how on earth can society's interests be best served by killing the majority of the population, if the said majority comprises the society in the first place, and thus their detriment will far outweigh whatever benefit the survivors derive, when considering whether such an action would be "good for society".

P.S. I betcha you consider yourself one of the 1/4 of the population that should survive...

hehe :D I love throwing out wild statements and then backing them up :D

My claim was simply that the interests of society woudl be serves if we killed 3/4 of the people on earth. I think this is true. I not advocating that, I believe inthe rights of individuals to be protected from society anyway, unless of your you kill people :p But, let's look at this.

If we killed 3/4 of the population that would leave 1.5 billion people on earth. Whew, what load off eh? The earth did not hit 2 billion people until 1930, I think we coudl do fine with 1.5 billion. Now, despite the inhumanity of the event human society would recove and be improved no doubt. Everyone would have greater individual freedom, more property, wealthy would skyrocket.

Study the plague in Europe. You know what caused the highest rise in wealthy in Europe prior to the discovery of America? The Plague. The Plague is what "created democracy". When the plague was over the population of Europe was reduced by as much as 50% and individual freedom went up and prosperity went up and the power of the individual went up, leading to the growth of democracy.

This planet needs and enema :p

Its just a fact that despite the inhumanity society would be improved by a mass death. We have no need for more people to contribute to society. Murderers aren't doing us any favors by reentering society, we are doing them the favor.

I'm not actually advoacting this, so I have no opinion about if I would be one of the survivors or not, the fact is just that society would be improved and humanity would probably advance at a very high rate after that, we would probably be back at 6 billion within 100 years.
 
O.K.,
Of all the things Malachi said, this is the only part that rings for me.
I don't approach this as an issue of rage or revenge, simply a breach of contract that grants life.

If you breach the societal contract of what is acceptable behavior to the point of wantonly killing members of that society, then you should be removed from that society. Permenantly.
It is my opinion that not everyone is a suitible candidate for rehabilitation.
De-valuation of victims is also a factor (to me). To expect the father of a murdered child to say "Whew, boy, I sure am glad they re-habilitated you! Nice to know you won't be killing any more children like you did mine! Lemonaid?"

Furthermore, how is keeping someone imprisoned for the rest of thier natural lives any different than killing them? It's a cop out. You aren't ever going to let them out. It's like burying someone alive so that you can claim you didn't kill them.
 
Retribution Theory

Why do we want systematized vengeance? Just because we want to take revenge, doesn't mean that we should.

No, I think now we get to the meat of your problem; the dichotomy of values and wants.

In reality where can you find the "should" if not from wants? Ultimately how do you justify it?

The only way I can see is if you set one up arbitrarily(categorical imperative, greatest good) which itself is merely a want.

In effect you are for the most part presuming that vangeance is only an extrinsic good. I and many, many people however see it as intrinsic. If someone wrongs us, we wish to revenge.

I'm not sure of why this is. In fact most people are not. But then again most people do not know why they feel a certain way about a great many things. People in the Middle Ages did not know why they liked meats, why they thought murder is wrong, why they wished to keep on living. But that didn't stop them from pursuing their values, pursuing their wants. Wanting is in itself a justification, wanting is the end that a "should" merely proposes to help you attain. Wanting is an ultimate jutsification, though not a full explanation.

I should also note the case against the death penalty is also based ultimately on emotion. The emotional appeal that we not be "barbaric"(which is merely a label given to something seen as unpleasant/undesired) or that we make it so no innocent person get punished, no matter the circumstances(a bit more complex an argument then the former of course based on less value for punishing the guilty and far more for sparring the innocent). Though I don't see how the latter applies to some very clear cut cases.

I CAN go further though and explain why I believe people have come to want the death penalty(a more ultimate explanation), basically it has to do with evolution.

During evolution organisms try to exploit eachother. Members of our species were no exception. Hence often times an animal had to resort to counter-agressive strategies: fighting back. This made them less likely to be exploited. But with more complex animals its different, you can fail once and try again, especially with humans. This is where mere momentary counter-agression is not enough. Merely stopping a guy from killing you during it is worthless if he simply gets to try again and again. This is where a more long-term retaliation, vengeance comes in. An organism is far less likely to attack an organism that will take vengeance, attack back, then it is that will passively either accept the assault, or defend itself till you stop.

Tell me what would you think of as more prudent to attack if you were a thief: someone who will stop you IF they catch you, or someone that will stop you and hurt you if they catch you or find out you stole?

Given a choice a prudent thief will always pick the former.

This applies to nature as well. Animals who merely defended were more likely to be exploited then animals that took vengeance.

I believe then that as animals became more intelligent, learned how to calculate odds and take advantage of others more easily, this sense of vengeance was more essential for societies where one person will quickly realize whether you will take vengeance or merely defend yourself at the moment. Hence vengeance evolved as a preventive measurement, as an extrinsic good.

But genes often times work indirectly, and extrinsic ends over times can only be consistently practiced if they are made into extrinsic values. Our enjoying foods is essential for our survival but how often would you eat if you did not enjoy the act itself? If it was neutral or considered a sort of labor? Less often then if you enjoyed the act. So the act of eating was made an intrinsic value, because it was so essential nature simply turned it on for good. Animal brains at times are also not developed enough to consider long-term goals and extrinsic values, so nature has to often time resort to emotion, making extrinsic values for the genotype intrisnic for the animal to get the animal to go for it at all.

And I believe in our complex, calculating societies vengeance was the most important of values. If people willing to exploit others knew you were a push-over, they'd take you for all you were worth. And they would quickly find out if you were one via gossip. Hence like the thief scenerio, if you would merely defend, they'd be more likely to attack you then if you didn't just stop at defense and took vengeance(especially if you were the type that took vengeance even if it hurt you as well).

Hence I believe this value, extrinsic to the genotype, by being so essential, became an instrinsic value for the phenotype, a basic emotion or desire. And there is no other basis of moral or behavioral justification then our basic emotions.

Now this theory isn't a science. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a scientific theory. It is mere conjecture, but I would say conjecture that makes sense, explains a lot about mine and apparently mankind's emotional mechanisms, and has *some* basis in scientific literature. Read Steven Pinker's the Blank Slate where he explained how our sense of retaliation evolved in order to help an organism avoid being exploited.

I'd also like to point out that the justification(in the ethical sense) for the death penalty is still raw emotion. Just as the argument against the death penalty comes down to raw emotion(or lack thereof). And my evolutionary conjecture was offered as mere explanation for why this is so. To make this point more explicit, I like playing games because its fun, not because it helped my ancestors survived. Knowing how playing games helped my ancestors survive would merely explain why I felt this way, if the game got boring though I'd stop playing evolutionary precedence or not.

And this is where the government comes in, as a force that allows us to attain our values in a more organized and efficient manner.

The government protects our most core extrinsic and instrinsic values: education, knowledge, progress, freedom, life, peace and prosperity.

And this goes the same for justice, vengeance. The government in demanding we cannot be allowed to pursue such a strong and universal value ourselves has to give us something in return if it is to retain legitimacy to deprive us of our personal vendettas. What the government gives in this respect is social justice, the fact that it will take vengeance for us, since it demands we do not do so for ourselves.

This has the advantages of keeping order, allowing the weaker party to attain justice, and enforcing justice more efficiently(by making sure less innocent people are harmed; which benefits both parties, etc.).

This is why for example we go after Holocaust criminals, even though it is unlikely to benefit our society in any other way, to bring back the victims, or even to prevent another genocide. Even IF they could prove that punishing such or any authors of genocide is unlikely to prevent genocide again, I and many others(I day say even those against the death penalty) would still probably want such people punished. Purely out of our sense of retribution.

This is thus why we want systematized vengeance, answered in the area of justification and (to a limited extent) in the sense of explanation.
 
Whomp said:

Furthermore, how is keeping someone imprisoned for the rest of thier natural lives any different than killing them? It's a cop out. You aren't ever going to let them out. It's like burying someone alive so that you can claim you didn't kill them.

Oh yeah, good point. I have brought that up before in differnet discussions.

Yeah, I see not taking the death penalty as a cop out, like Whomp said. Its s way for the "victem's" to try and take a moral high ground, in fact though they don't do that. Like he said, how does keeping someone in prison for life do any good?

All that is is making yourself feel better because you then feel support to the "killer". In fact your just wasting their time, our time, and a bunch of resources.

Its like leaving someone on life support in pain for 5 years with no hope of recovery just because you are too afraid to pull the plug.

So you see what I mean, its like you are really wanting to oppose the death pentalty for selfish reasons, not altruistic. Its your own concious that you seek to protect, not their life. (Well, maybe not YOU, but that applies to many people.)
 
Wow,
D.M. I read your posts and wonder why I'm bothering to post to this thread.
Well thought out, well spoken.
 
I agree with DM. I favor the death penalty not because it costs less, not because it may or may not deter future crime and not because it absolutely prevents future crimes by the executed criminal.

I favor the death penalty because I think the desire for vengeance is a completely natural desire that was imparted to us by evolution for species beneficial reasons and it is reasonable in extreme cases to satisfy that desire.

Having said that even though this is an important issue, it's one I don't feel strongly about. For me, the argument that by keeping the criminals alive we are more likely to find faulty convictions which can work as a kind of feedback mechanism to improve the reliability of the trial procedures is a good anti-death penalty argument.
 
Re: Retribution Theory

DialecticMaterialist

No, I think now we get to the meat of your problem; the dichotomy of values and wants.

In reality where can you find the "should" if not from wants? Ultimately how do you justify it?

The only way I can see is if you set one up arbitrarily(categorical imperative, greatest good) which itself is merely a want.
First of all, "greatest good" is not merely a want -- it's the very literal incarnation of the connection between desires and mores. It's about as close to "natural ethics" as one can get.

The issue here is of consistency. Some of our desires -- some things that we regard as pleasant and good -- conflict with others. The point here is that even though abolition of death lenalty would conflict with some desires in the short run, it would actually lead to a better society (i.e. the society that further improves the public good) in the long run.

In effect you are for the most part presuming that vangeance is only an extrinsic good. I and many, many people however see it as intrinsic. If someone wrongs us, we wish to revenge.
Yes. And that wish conflicts our wish for the humane society that maximizes happiness.

I should also note the case against the death penalty is also based ultimately on emotion.
All ethics and politics isa based ultimately on emotion -- on the desire to survive, if nothing else. the difference is that some imperatives we all agree on seeking (survival, progress, etc.) and some imepratives we don't. When a conflict between the former and the latter arises, which one should give, do you think?

I CAN go further though and explain why I believe people have come to want the death penalty(a more ultimate explanation), basically it has to do with evolution.
Evolutionary explanation may explain why this is how things are, but it says nothing about how things ought to be. Descriptive ethics is useful, but don't mistake it for prescriptive ethics.

Tell me what would you think of as more prudent to attack if you were a thief: someone who will stop you IF they catch you, or someone that will stop you and hurt you if they catch you or find out you stole?
Deterrenbce is a part of prevention; but death penalty has repeatedly been shown to be no deterrent to crimes for which death penalty is imposed.

We can treat incarceration as deterrence, and that's fine; but then we will arrive at incarceration methods and practices very different from what we now have under our vengeance system.

Given a choice a prudent thief will always pick the former.
Criminals already aren't prudent -- else they wouldn't be criminals. There are very few crimes which a prudent person would undertake.

And I believe in our complex, calculating societies vengeance was the most important of values. If people willing to exploit others knew you were a push-over, they'd take you for all you were worth. And they would quickly find out if you were one via gossip.
Who said anything about being a push-over? You are attacking a strawman.

As I said, incarceration can be a part of systematic program of deterrence, which in turn would help prevent crime (but then the laws would be rather different from what they are right now). However, death penalty has no place in that scheme.
 
DAvefoc, it seems that the whole "keep 'em alive in case we screwed up" argument is more of a statement against our legal system than against capital punishment.

Victor,
rehabilitation may or may not keep someone from commiting murder again. Incarceration may or may not keep someone from commiting murder again.
Capital punishment will keep someone from commiting murder again.
I am unable to see how doing away with the death penalty will make a better society.
I read back over your posts and found this as an explaination.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does rehabilitation serve society better then execution?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In multiple ways. Most obviously, it returns a productive individual back into society. More subtly, the society that supports rehabilitation instead of execution, promotes valuation of human life -- not just the lives we like and approve of, but all lives. This sort of attitude is of course at the core of freedom -- the fact that freedom means freedom for others to do even something you dislike -- and so this sort of conceptualization of justice would further promote a zeitgeist of tolerance and freedom in society.
What I like or dislike matters not. What society likes or dislikes is another matter. Society dislikes having it's members slaughtered without just cause. The concept of freedom should never include the concept that murder is acceptable. This goes beyond a "dislike".
Actions have consequences.
 
Whomp

it seems that the whole "keep 'em alive in case we screwed up" argument is more of a statement against our legal system than against capital punishment.
No, it's recognition of the fact that humans are fundamentally fallible; that certain error rate is unevoidable -- not a feature of our particular bad implementation of legal system, but an inherent feature of any legal system.

rehabilitation may or may not keep someone from commiting murder again. Incarceration may or may not keep someone from commiting murder again.
Capital punishment will keep someone from commiting murder again.
Rehabilitation will leave wide-open the possibility of being proven innocent. Incarceration will make it possible for innocents to eventually regain freedom. Capital punishment is the only final, irreversible, incorrigible solution.

What I like or dislike matters not. What society likes or dislikes is another matter. Society dislikes having it's members slaughtered without just cause.
Society dislikes even more the killing of innocents by mistake.
 
(sigh)

It's sad, Victor, how on your view the needs of the CRIMINAL become virtually identical with those of "society", so that he must be rehabiliatated, pampered, and returned to it; but the needs and rights of the victims for justice are dismissed offhand as a "primitive emotional reaction".

Also, you haven't answered my question: on your view, why should the nazi war criminals have been punished at all? After all, that didn't bring the victims back to life, and it lost "society" all those important, capable people, that could have helped so much in reconstructing Germany! Sure, they killed a few million lousy victims, but we shouldn't let our "emotional reaction" about THAT stop us from doing what is "rational", now should we?

Now, if you think they should NOT have been punished, the discussion stops here--it means you and I are from totally different galaxies as far as our sense of justice is concerned. But if you agree that they SHOULD have been punished, why NOT people like Ted Bundy or other murderers, as well?
 
... but the needs and rights of the victims for justice are dismissed offhand as a "primitive emotional reaction".
In the kind of justice system common in Western countries, the needs and rights of victims are largely ignored as it is centered around the perpetrator. It is centered around the idea that the guilty should get punished.

In a more victim centered justice system, punishment is less important. What is more important is restoring the damage and relieving the suffering caused by the crime:
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1704.htm
http://www.restorativejustice.org/

Are the people who are in favour of the death penalty also in favour of other physical punishments, such as beatings, whippings, amputations? If so, why? If not, why not?
 

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