“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

varwoche said:
Masked goons pepper-sprayed Trump supporters in Orange County. They are reported to be "antifa" (a term I was unfamiliar with until this thread). Does anyone care to support these actions?
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How about this:

The counter protesters claimed they were forming a human wall in a legal protest, abt 30 counter-protesters against 2000 marchers. Based on the link, sounds like only a few of the counter-protesters had spray, and used it when the 2000 Trupmeters had closed in on them, possibly with enough menace as to pose a credible threat to the safety of the few opposers. Then the Trumpeters apparently beat one to the ground, kicking and punching him. Sounds like a violent mob attacking some civil counter-protesters (who were prepared for self-defense by bringing spray) to me. Anything in the link to rule out this scenario?
 
Jules Galen said:
Bob: Says words that are offensive and inflammatory
Bob's followers: Walk around in the neighbourhood surrounding Bob's talk and assault people as per Bob's talk.
Steve: Punches Bob
Bob: Defends himself from Steve's onslaught.
Cop: Arrests Steve and Bob for fighting
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ftfy
 
MostlyDead said:
How about this:

The counter protesters claimed they were forming a human wall in a legal protest, abt 30 counter-protesters against 2000 marchers. Based on the link, sounds like only a few of the counter-protesters had spray, and used it when the 2000 Trupmeters had closed in on them, possibly with enough menace as to pose a credible threat to the safety of the few opposers. Then the Trumpeters apparently beat one to the ground, kicking and punching him. Sounds like a violent mob attacking some civil counter-protesters (who were prepared for self-defense by bringing spray) to me. Anything in the link to rule out this scenario?
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Showing up with pepper spray and masks doesn't exactly paint a picture of honorable intention.

Yes, it was just a few of them. Typical.

I'll try to dig up some better reporting later on.
 
MostlyDead said:
How about this:

The counter protesters claimed they were forming a human wall in a legal protest, abt 30 counter-protesters against 2000 marchers. Based on the link, sounds like only a few of the counter-protesters had spray, and used it when the 2000 Trupmeters had closed in on them, possibly with enough menace as to pose a credible threat to the safety of the few opposers. Then the Trumpeters apparently beat one to the ground, kicking and punching him. Sounds like a violent mob attacking some civil counter-protesters (who were prepared for self-defense by bringing spray) to me. Anything in the link to rule out this scenario?
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I don't know about anyone else, but I only wear masks for Halloween.

It will be up to the police to sort out what happened, and who was acting in self defense, but if the only claim that this guy has was based on some sort of feeling, he's got no claim at all. Moreover, the police are going to start out biased against the guy, and they should. There's one group of people with a permit, and some other dude, with no permit, masked and with pepper spray. It's going to be a really tough sell to convince anyone that the masked man was not the troublemaker in that scenario.
 
These so-called "Trump Supporters" of Sacramento:

Edited by Darat: 
Removed "hotlinked" images. Please see Rule 5.

https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/1-58.jpg
https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/1-6.jpeg
https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/1-65.jpg

Apparently they have the habit of stabbing the untermenschen around them at their rallies.

How dare anyone even think about bringing pepper-spray as a self-defense measure against this?! It's an utter affront to the glorious ideals of liberalism!
 
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MostlyDead said:
How about this:

The counter protesters claimed they were forming a human wall in a legal protest, abt 30 counter-protesters against 2000 marchers. Based on the link, sounds like only a few of the counter-protesters had spray, and used it when the 2000 Trupmeters had closed in on them, possibly with enough menace as to pose a credible threat to the safety of the few opposers. Then the Trumpeters apparently beat one to the ground, kicking and punching him. Sounds like a violent mob attacking some civil counter-protesters (who were prepared for self-defense by bringing spray) to me. Anything in the link to rule out this scenario?
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You can't intentionally expose yourself to a "threat" and then use that as an excuse to attack the "threat."
 
varwoche said:
Showing up with pepper spray and masks doesn't exactly paint a picture of honorable intention.

Yes, it was just a few of them. Typical.

I'll try to dig up some better reporting later on.
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Meadmaker said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I only wear masks for Halloween.

It will be up to the police to sort out what happened, and who was acting in self defense, but if the only claim that this guy has was based on some sort of feeling, he's got no claim at all. Moreover, the police are going to start out biased against the guy, and they should. There's one group of people with a permit, and some other dude, with no permit, masked and with pepper spray. It's going to be a really tough sell to convince anyone that the masked man was not the troublemaker in that scenario.
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Admittedly a bit of Devil's Advocate here, but I don't think the masks and pepper spray are necessarily ominous. Pepper spray is a non-lethal self-defense aid, deregulated and perfectly legal to carry in California (linked below). Trump marches may have trouble-making white supremacists, fascist types etc in their ranks (these groups overwhelmingly support President Trump) who could plausibly attack a civil counter-protester.. The most telling trait of the use of pepper spray is that it is non-lethal, hence somewhat humane. If they carried Molotovs and pipes, a harder sell for justifiable self-defense.

Re: masks, it is reasonable to not want your mug posted on a neo-nazi website, with a 'Wanted For Treason-Dead or Alive' caption, so masks my be prudent for self-protection as well. The counter-protesters see the marchers as violent fascists, so they may have good reason to fear unlawful retaliation if identified.

And the obvious: 30 counter protesters versus two thousand marchers. Did they have a tanker truck full of pepper spray? If not, sounds more like some were carrying personal (and legal) self-defense aids, not weapons to launch against legions. These cats may not be that bright, but I don't think they're that dumb.

http://consumerwiki.dca.ca.gov/wiki/index.php/Pepper_Spray_(Mace/Tear_Gas)
 
The Big Dog said:
You can't intentionally expose yourself to a "threat" and then use that as an excuse to attack the "threat."
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Do you suggest that one cannot engage in political expression if there is a chance of possible conflict, or at least cannot justifiably defend themselves if attacked...because they intentionally put themselves there? You sure about this argument?
 
MostlyDead said:
Admittedly a bit of Devil's Advocate here, but I don't think the masks and pepper spray are necessarily ominous. Pepper spray is a non-lethal self-defense aid, deregulated and perfectly legal to carry in California (linked below). Trump marches may have trouble-making white supremacists, fascist types etc in their ranks (these groups overwhelmingly support President Trump) who could plausibly attack a civil counter-protester.. The most telling trait of the use of pepper spray is that it is non-lethal, hence somewhat humane. If they carried Molotovs and pipes, a harder sell for justifiable self-defense.

Re: masks, it is reasonable to not want your mug posted on a neo-nazi website, with a 'Wanted For Treason-Dead or Alive' caption, so masks my be prudent for self-protection as well. The counter-protesters see the marchers as violent fascists, so they may have good reason to fear unlawful retaliation if identified.

And the obvious: 30 counter protesters versus two thousand marchers. Did they have a tanker truck full of pepper spray? If not, sounds more like some were carrying personal (and legal) self-defense aids, not weapons to launch against legions. These cats may not be that bright, but I don't think they're that dumb.

http://consumerwiki.dca.ca.gov/wiki/index.php/Pepper_Spray_(Mace/Tear_Gas)
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I've seen some videos. There are undoubtedly more. The police will have to look through them and see if they can determine who initiated the violence. However, if there's a group of people who followed proper procedure, got permits, and clearly had a right to be where they were, and someone shows up, interferes with that, while wearing a mask and carrying pepper spray, it's just hard to picture that person as having acted in a totally benign manner.

The "I felt threatened because I was surrounded by crazy people" defense is certainly not going to fly. At the very least, they will have to show that there were actual threats to their safety. I think even that would be insufficient unless the threats were specific and credible. I think they would have to show that the Trump supporters actually initiated violence in order to justify using pepper spray on them.

Some of the video I've seen looked fairly damning of the pro-Trump crowd, but it also looked heavily edited. Hopefully, the police can make sense of it. This sort of violence is very, very, bad, and I hope they can clearly pinpoint a responsible party.
 
Meadmaker said:
I've seen some videos. There are undoubtedly more. The police will have to look through them and see if they can determine who initiated the violence. However, if there's a group of people who followed proper procedure, got permits, and clearly had a right to be where they were, and someone shows up, interferes with that, while wearing a mask and carrying pepper spray, it's just hard to picture that person as having acted in a totally benign manner.

The "I felt threatened because I was surrounded by crazy people" defense is certainly not going to fly. At the very least, they will have to show that there were actual threats to their safety. I think even that would be insufficient unless the threats were specific and credible. I think they would have to show that the Trump supporters actually initiated violence in order to justify using pepper spray on them.

Some of the video I've seen looked fairly damning of the pro-Trump crowd, but it also looked heavily edited. Hopefully, the police can make sense of it. This sort of violence is very, very, bad, and I hope they can clearly pinpoint a responsible party.
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I'm running with 'natural adversaries who are likely to throw down any time they meet'. The LA Times for example reports that the pro-Trump marchers attacked photographers and reporters, linked below (whitelist the site to read), and yes the video I have seen showed exclusively naked aggression by the marchers. Others paint the counter-protesters as the instigators. Good guess that while one antifa may have sprayed first, the pro-Trump crowd was more than willing to rough up anyone in range.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-trump-rally-20170326-story.html

ETA: the LA Times reports that the pro-Trumpers attacked the media first, then the pepper spray happened. For funsies, they also include a pic of Trump supporters...wearing bandanna masks
 
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Mycroft said:
Something I found that applies to this discussion, a quote from actual anarchists:

"Instead of attacking impersonal symbols of justice, we think that it is very important to transpose our hostilities to the personal environment of the enemy, their homes, offices, hangouts and vehicles. We know that to authority ”nobody is irreplaceable” but we also know that a personal hit against one of them would instill fear in another 100. "

https://insurrectionnewsworldwide.c...lls-of-fire-nemesis-project-an-open-proposal/

Hooboy! Doesn't that just make you ache to live in a world of their creation?
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Free to attack mine, but they will not be happy with the results.
 
MostlyDead said:
I'm running with 'natural adversaries who are likely to throw down any time they meet'.
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False equivalence for the win.

The LA Times for example reports that the pro-Trump marchers attacked photographers and reporters, linked below (whitelist the site to read), and yes the video I have seen showed exclusively naked aggression by the marchers.
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Of course they did, that's what neo-nazis do during and surrounding their rallies. I even provided a fairly in-depth exposé of these particular so-called "Trump supporters" just a couple of posts ago.
 
Jules Galen said:
Bob: Says words that are offensive and inflammatory
Steve: Punches Bob
Bob: Defends himself from Steve's onslaught.
Cop: Arrests Steve and Bob for fighting
Steve: Claims it was self-defense because of "fighting words" No...just no.
Bob: Claims he was innocent and just defending himself. Nope...won't work.

That's what I meant.
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Who gets to decide when specific words mean you're guilty of the other guy punching you out?
 
varwoche said:
More like a Devil's pretzel. You paint a picture of masked thugs as if they are Aunt Betty on a stroll in the park, pepper spray in purse just in case.
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Untrue, unfair, and a blatant strawman. I assert outright that the measures they took were likely in preparation for being attacked by the marchers, as Trump supporters are known to be violent towards those with whom they disagree.

You offered earlier to dig up additional reporting. Please note that I actually did, from eyewitness reporting by the LA Times, above. From one of the attacked journalists (attacked by Trump supporters, of course):

Tristan, the 21-year-old intern, said he has been reporting on the event all day and noticed that the Trump supporters were the aggressors
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While condemning the 'masked thugs', I trust you will note that the LA Times includes photos of Trump supporters in masks as well, and that the marchers had initiated violence by assaulting a photographer, then punching a journalist who came the defense. You may need to be clearer on who the thugs are.
 
caveman1917 said:
False equivalence for the win.
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Could you clarify this? It could mean a couple different things (or nothing at all).

Of course they did, that's what neo-nazis do during and surrounding their rallies. I even provided a fairly in-depth exposé of these particular so-called "Trump supporters" just a couple of posts ago.
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Yes, but the expose` was mostly posting the personal information of individuals, exactly the kind of thing the good guys tend not to do. Protesting and demonstrating for ideology is one thing, and posting the equivalent of online Wanted Posters is another
 
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MostlyDead said:
Do you suggest that one cannot engage in political expression if there is a chance of possible conflict, or at least cannot justifiably defend themselves if attacked...because they intentionally put themselves there? You sure about this argument?
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You wrote "forming a human wall." And then claimed that the Pro-Trump marchers "closed in on them."

Meaning, of course, the "human wall" which they had constructed. That is what we call the "they were coming right for me!" defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU
 
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