“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

[Ziggurat]

Congratulations for mangling the analogy to the point of uselessness. You either missed the point or don't want to see it.

Oh, I understand your point perfectly. I just don't agree with it. You seem to have confused the two.

 

[Belz...]

Oh, I understand your point perfectly. I just don't agree with it. You seem to have confused the two.

Seems to me that, unlike you stated previously, you actually don't see the difference between fascism and communism. Wouldn't that make _you_ confused?

And if you do understand the difference, why do you spend so much energy in insisting that the difference doesn't matter?

 

[Ziggurat]

Seems to me that, unlike you stated previously, you actually don't see the difference between fascism and communism.

Seems to me you based this conclusion entirely on the fact that I don't agree with your analogy. But that conclusion simply doesn't follow.

And if you do understand the difference, why do you spend so much energy in insisting that the difference doesn't matter?

It doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread. Particularly in any exchange with caveman, who has himself adopted a rather... broad definition of fascism.

So why do you spend so much energy insisting that the difference matters, even though you have yet to say why it matters?

 

[Belz...]

Seems to me you based this conclusion entirely on the fact that I don't agree with your analogy.

Yeah well the fact that you don't agree with the analogy, and have replaced it with one that essentially has no distinction between the two, hints to the idea that you don't think there's important differences between the two ideologies.

It doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread. Particularly in any exchange with caveman, who has himself adopted a rather... broad definition of fascism.

Sorry, I can't help you with that one.

So why do you spend so much energy insisting that the difference matters, even though you have yet to say why it matters?

Words have meaning. It matters that we cleary communicate the ideas that they represent, and if you disagree with that, then I don't see how I could possibly convince you.

 

[mgidm86]

Ann Coulter cancelled her speech. She says conservatives who nacked her have changed their minds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/us/ann-coulter-berkeley-speech.html?_r=0

Late on Tuesday, the conservative group that was helping Ms. Coulter in her legal efforts to force Berkeley to host her, Young America’s Foundation, said it could no longer participate. “Young America’s Foundation will not jeopardize the safety of its staff or students,” the group said.


Without any support, Ms. Coulter said, she was left with little choice. “Everyone who should believe in free speech fought against it or ran away,” she said.


...


The Berkeley College Republicans, which invited Ms. Coulter and was supposed to sponsor her visit, also backed out and joined Young America’s Foundation in saying the atmosphere had grown too hostile.

[The Berkeley chancellor, Nicholas B. Dirks says,] “Sadly and unfortunately, concern for student safety seems to be in short supply in certain quarters,” he said. “This is a university, not a battlefield.” He added, “We must make every effort to hold events at a time and location that maximizes the chances that First Amendment rights can be successfully exercised and that community members can be protected.”

Riiiiight.

Community members can be protected, they just are not. The last riot went on for about 12 hours total.

So did her security pull out or is it about the money she was to be paid? Wondering how much freedom of speech is worth to her. Not a Coulter fan, nor a hater, but this is sad.

 

[Ziggurat]

Words have meaning. It matters that we cleary communicate the ideas that they represent, and if you disagree with that, then I don't see how I could possibly convince you.

This was a conversation with caveman. It does not, in fact, matter, regardless of what words I use. It was always, always, going to be pointless beyond whatever amusement it provided.

 

[Belz...]

This was a conversation with caveman. It does not, in fact, matter, regardless of what words I use. It was always, always, going to be pointless beyond whatever amusement it provided.

Well, if that's the way you feel, fine.

 

[marplots]

So did her security pull out or is it about the money she was to be paid? Wondering how much freedom of speech is worth to her. Not a Coulter fan, nor a hater, but this is sad.

Maybe we could introduce them to the 21st century and webcasting. All the speech, none of the danger. Heck, make it pay-per-view if they like.

 

[The Big Dog]

Ann Coulter cancelled her speech. She says conservatives who nacked her have changed their minds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/us/ann-coulter-berkeley-speech.html?_r=0

Riiiiight.

Community members can be protected, they just are not. The last riot went on for about 12 hours total.

So did her security pull out or is it about the money she was to be paid? Wondering how much freedom of speech is worth to her. Not a Coulter fan, nor a hater, but this is sad.

Not a huge surprise, the student groups who invited her withdrew support, I wonder how they were "convinced" to do that?

 

[Stout]

The definition of fascism has become pretty fluid in conversations like these. It's much like the term white supremacy, which used to have a meaning but has somehow morphed to mean all white society.

Are antifa fascists ? Yea, sure, I'll buy that for purposes like this thread. after all what would you call a group that spray paints slogans like "Kill Frat Boys" on the outside of frat houses because, among other things, the activists feel the Greco-Roman legacy has inspired so much of the march of European civilization against the “uncivilized.”

No word if they hit a sorority house yet.

It's Going Down link

 

[theprestige]

Yes, but one's on the left and the other on the right. They're both authoritarian, sure, but saying they're both fascists just leads to confusion, I think.

On the left and right of what, exactly? Both are progressive. Both are the product of revolutionary ideologies. Both seek to improve society through transformation--violent transformation if necessary. Even though Hitler's Nazism preached a gospel of restoration to a mythic historical ideal, it pursued that goal not through conservation of the existing order, but by its destruction and replacement. In the end, Soviet Communism looks a lot like a collectivized version of Italian or Spanish fascism. And Hitler's Nazism looks a lot like a nationalist version of communist socialism.

But whatever. Defenders of antifa and black bloc in this thread and others have so far diluted terms like "fascism" and "speech" that it really doesn't matter whether we resolve this sidebar amongst ourselves. And if we continue it much longer, it'll have to be split off anyway. A new thread on this topic is quite frankly more trouble than it's worth, in my opinion, so I'll let you have the last word.

 

[sadhatter]

Maybe we could introduce them to the 21st century and webcasting. All the speech, none of the danger. Heck, make it pay-per-view if they like.

What's wrong with the back of the bus? They still have a seat.

Protip is the action that is wrong not the target.

 

[marplots]

What's wrong with the back of the bus? They still have a seat.

Protip is the action that is wrong not the target.

I guess the back of the bus depends on how important you think it is to get where you are going, vs., you know, making some meta-point.

I suppose if Coulter doesn't really have anything worth speaking about and it's all just a ruse to bring up free speech issues, then no compromise will do. After all, if the idea is to get into a fight, there's no reason to do anything other than fight.

It rings hollow and disingenuous to me, if that's what Coulter is after. If showing up is more important than anything she has to say. It's become the American version of soccer hooliganism - no longer about the sport, but about the confrontation.

All part of a $50,000 college education, I guess.

 

[Ziggurat]

I guess the back of the bus depends on how important you think it is to get where you are going, vs., you know, making some meta-point.

That's a new spin: Rosa Parks was just making some meta-point.

 

[theprestige]

Congratulations for mangling the analogy to the point of uselessness. You either missed the point or don't want to see it.

Seems to me you based this conclusion entirely on the fact that I don't agree with your analogy. But that conclusion simply doesn't follow.

Yeah well the fact that you don't agree with the analogy, and have replaced it with one that essentially has no distinction between the two, hints to the idea that you don't think there's important differences between the two ideologies.

And this right here is the problem with arguing from analogy. You end up wasting time arguing about whether the analogy is sufficiently analogous, when you should be arguing from the thing itself, in its own terms.

Analogies are sometimes good for introducing laymen or children to new and complex topics, where a familiar concept can help them get started on the path to understanding. They're never a good tool for accomplishing the understanding of the thing itself.

 

[Belz...]

On the left and right of what, exactly?

The political spectrum. But you knew that.

Both are progressive. Both are the product of revolutionary ideologies. Both seek to improve society through transformation--violent transformation if necessary.

Wanting change is not necessarily the defining charactersitic of the left.

 

[Belz...]

And this right here is the problem with arguing from analogy. You end up wasting time arguing about whether the analogy is sufficiently analogous, when you should be arguing from the thing itself, in its own terms.

No, that is the problem with arguing from analogy on this forum. Apparently no analogy will ever pass muster because either it doesn't 100% fit with the thing it's been compared to (which is a given, since it's an analogy) or another analogy will be proposed to better fit with the second poster's opinion, rather than making any sort of effort at understanding the point.

 

[The Big Dog]

And this right here is the problem with arguing from analogy. You end up wasting time arguing about whether the analogy is sufficiently analogous, when you should be arguing from the thing itself, in its own terms.

Analogies are sometimes good for introducing laymen or children to new and complex topics, where a familiar concept can help them get started on the path to understanding. They're never a good tool for accomplishing the understanding of the thing itself.

That is in all seriousness a very good analysis of critical arguments. although I submit that a good analogy can be a good tool for explaining an argument, it should not be substituted for the argument itself as you point out above in the first paragraph.

 

[sadhatter]

I guess the back of the bus depends on how important you think it is to get where you are going, vs., you know, making some meta-point.

I suppose if Coulter doesn't really have anything worth speaking about and it's all just a ruse to bring up free speech issues, then no compromise will do. After all, if the idea is to get into a fight, there's no reason to do anything other than fight.

It rings hollow and disingenuous to me, if that's what Coulter is after. If showing up is more important than anything she has to say. It's become the American version of soccer hooliganism - no longer about the sport, but about the confrontation.

All part of a $50,000 college education, I guess.

Listen I'm not saying you can't ride the bus ,I'm not an ******* , I'm just saying that you can keep in the back, we're compromising here, meet me half way.

 

[marplots]

That's a new spin: Rosa Parks was just making some meta-point.

Isn't that why we honor her?