This is some f*cked up ◊◊◊◊:

well, let me say it this way: do you know of any vehicle that can withstand a direct hit with even a small nuke?

And my larger point would be, that if this represents the level of your research, perhaps you would be wise to be a tad less certain of your conclusions. Again, nothing at all personal, just a comment on data and data analysis.
 
King of the Americas said:
aggle_rithm

The first rule of terrorism: Keep a low profile!

*Did you get that from the Al-caeda handbook? I don't see ANY reason to believe that ALL terrorists are or act 'intelligently'.



No, I got that from "24".

My point was not that ALL terrorists act intelligently. However, it is safe to say that all the terrorists involved in the 9/11 attack acted in a very competent manner, given the unfortunate results of their efforts. If the other bozos were planning an assasination, it was clearly unrelated and therefore irrelevant.



Sandra Kay Daniels, the teacher whose second-grade classroom Bush visited on 9/11, told

the Los Angeles Times that after Card informed Bush of the second crash, Bush got up and left.

"He said, 'Ms. Daniels, I have to leave now.' ... Looking at his face, you knew something was

wrong. I said a little prayer for him. He shook my hand and left." Daniels also said, "I knew

something was up when President Bush didn't pick up the book and participate in the lesson."

[Los Angeles Times, 9/11/02] However, the Booker video clearly shows that Bush did follow

along after being told of the second plane.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*Please find me ANYONE who can say, "Oh yeah, I met with the President that day, but I am kinda of unclear as to what else happened that day, or when it happened.

I never said the teacher or President Bush were unclear about what happened. That's the tricky thing about memory. Our confidence in memory has no bearing on the accuracy of memory.

There was a memory study done right after the Challenger explosion in which a number of college students were asked what they were doing when the shuttle exploded. Some time later, they were interviewed again, and almost all thier memories had altered over time. Some students were very perplexed because they had very clear recollections of where they were and what they were doing, but found that these recollections were false.
 
To aggle_rithm:

I don't think the issue is what is possible at that moment. The issue or point being made is what the Rules say to do in just such a situation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I must have missed something. What are these Rules you keep talking about?

*I believe the original author suggested such 'Rules' are present in the Procedural Manuals at NORAD and or the air controller infrastructure.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*I think what the writer means, is that he wasn't in a situation room atmopshere FOR him to be able to comment on show and what should be shoot down.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Oh, I see. What...?

*"Pardon me, Mr. President we have an inbound aircraft that has been hijacked headed for the capitol, and we have an F-16 lock on. Does the pilot have permission to fire on the civilan aircraft?"

The President, "But the father didn't like the goat..." "What did you just say? Don't worry kids, they ask me this kind of stuff all the time. [To the advisor] SURE blow them out of the sky. [To the class] Now where were we with this goat?"

By 'not available for counsel', the writer means that you usually DON'T address these kinds of issues witht he President while he is engaged in a photo-op with a bunch of kids.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*I think the point is that if a bully beats down your brother right in front of you, you shouldn't stand among children, as he points to you and says "You're next."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hmm... maybe I'm dense, but I completely missed that point.

*No one called you dense, but if this is a self admission I won't disagree with you. My self-admittedly dense friend is that WHEN the President found our that our country was underattack, BEING its Leader HE could very well have been a target also. KNOWING this, staying longer meant that he was indeed endangering the kids he was surrounded by.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*That is why there are rules in place that say exactly how to deal with these situations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



....where?

*AGAIN, according to the original author, in the Procedural Manual at NORAD the FAA.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*It is clear that you aren't familiar with the Rules of Engagment for Military against its own civilians.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



?????

*I am not sure what "?????" means in this instance. Are you suggesting that you don't know what must take place before our military is used to attack a civilan target?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



*The fact is that while on the ground Air Force One is capable of withstanding a direct nuclear attack. In the air, it is much more vunerable to an airborn attack without fighter excort.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I think you're confused here. Air Force One is shielded against the EM pulse of a nuclear attack, but a direct blast would pretty much incinerate it.

*I have admitted such, and conceeded this point to Hal already.
 
To aggle_rithm:

College students remembering the Challanger explosion, and Our President's recollection of the 9-11 events are on somewhat of different levels, don't you think?

Moreover, his memory of how he found out and what he said he saw when he claimed to have seen it, is only PART of the inconsistancy. His action, or inaction as it were is much more of an issue besides him and his faulty memory, although they can't be overlooked.
 
KOA,

I have read all of the posts in the thread. I have followed the link and read the entire article and also the other articles posted for rebuttal. I have also thought carefully about your arguments and the arguments presented in the article and not dismissed you out of hand.

My conclusion: I'm not impressed. The evidence provided is about as good as any conspiracy theory page on the web today. From the magic bullet to the protocols of Zion.

It is interesting though. Something to think about:

Free Thinking in a Dirty Glass

Pretty thin gruel for a good conspiracy theory, I suppose. But as the Wood and Thompson point out, the real scandal is the fact that so little of what the President and his administration did on 9/11 has been properly explained or documented.

Other than putting out a few false stories to justify Bush's peripatetic wanderings, the White House has been content to leave things that way. And it wants the independent 9/11 commission it was forced to create to adopt the same don't ask, don't tell policy. So conspiracy theorists take heart: We may never know what really happened.
The author thinks that Bush was simply unable to deal with what was happening at that time. He assigns Bush's inaction to "a profound weakness".

I don't think so. Who knows but there is nothing there for a conspiracy or proof that Bush was profoundly weak. People are human, even presidents and in the days that followed the President rose to the occasion and I was very proud of how he reacted to the situation.

In the final analysis there simply is no proof that there was a conspiracy. If you choose to believe that there was a conspiracy then there is probably little I can do to dissuade you. Could you perhaps check out Examining Famous "Conspiracies" by Robert Sheaffer of The Debunker's Domain . I will let you decide if you think the president was weak or why he acted the way he acted. The truth is we just don't know. Anything else is speculation.

RandFan
 
shemp said:
I really hate it when I feel the need to defend the U.S. government, but here's my feeling about your two points:

1. The U.S. government is made up of people. People make mistakes. A lot of mistakes were made that day. A lot of bad decisions were made that day. A lot of decisions were made that day with politics in mind. A lot of decisions were made that day that are probably now regretted by the people who made those decisions.

2. If there's a cover-up, it's much more likely to be a cover-up of incompetency than a cover-up of complicity.

I think the report is useful as a historical record, in compiling evidence of such mistakes. But all of this is available in pieces in one place or another. I don't see anything really new here.

Good Gravy, I just was thinking exactly what Shemp said. I concur and agree completely with Shemp! Scary
 
Re: Re: To CFLarsen:

CFLarsen said:
KOA,

Pray tell, what is the point of having a lot of people reading your stuff, if you cannot at least give them a hint what it is about?

You pop up at various times with the most silly claims, all completely lacking any kind of evidence. When trounced (and this happens every bloody time!), you disappear with complaints that nobody understands you. Then, weeks or even months after, you resurface with yet another silly claim.

Familiar, isn't it?

Like another past member with an "ology" to promote.

Speak not his name...I think he occasionaly does a search to see if he's been mentioned. :rolleyes:
 
I have to agree with consesus here: interesting reading, but way too many disparate dots to connect. Bring us a smoking gun, and then I'll believe. Until then, it's all pops and whistles down here.

Michael
 
Presuming this is a credible news source, I would have done the same thing if I were President and had to speak to a class of school children. Better than running off and getting them all upset about America being under attack.

Or are you talking about the various SNAFU's? This kind of thing happens in any government caught with it's pants down. WHen you get hardened to such thing catastrophy that you snap to and do everything by the book, that's when you gotta worry, because it's happening too frequently.
 
Conspiracy theorists, If not for them It would be very much harder to get a good laugh....
 
Kodiak said:

That "pop" you hear is KOA's brain exploding.

Just kidding, KOA. Seriously, I'm sorry if the article did not get the response you wanted. However, most of the posters on this forum are well educated and have good critical thinking skills. They're unlikely to be taken in by this sort of transparent gobbledygook. I could go on arguing about it for days, but it would be a waste of energy, much like the article itself.
 
I think...

...this post has ran its course, and served its purpose, at least to me.

My conclusive feelings about the link provided is that I didn't and don't find evidence that leads me to believe that these attacks were KNOWN about, and 'allowed' to continue..

The f*cked up ◊◊◊◊ I was referring to that I am still quite puzzled about is what the President did, why he did it, and when he did it, aswell as what he ne when he knew it.

I just got done reading the leftover responses from yesterday, and have not visited any of the links provided, so I may have to amend this statement...

Given the nature of the attacks, and that the FAA KNEW there were no less than 4 planes hijacked and headed off course within minutes of the hijacking, and known for SURE after the first plane hit the WTC, the President SHOULD have been briefed fully and NEEDED to be prepared to lead a nation. He did NOT need to be reading a story about a goat with children.

At the very least, he should have excused himself and been in the loop, prepared to give an order to possibly bring down a civilian plane inbound for the capitol. I mean, to say that he did the RIGHT thing by NOT 'rushing out the room upseting 16 kids' is the biggest load of complete and utter crap that I have every heard, period. Let's see, causing 16 kids to worry OR fulfilling the oath and duty of the Office of the President of the United States...? I think someone priorities were clearly WAY F*CKED up that day.

My biggest problem with most of the responses to this post was that out of 19 pages of text, few found any reason to think this was indeed "some f*cked up ◊◊◊◊". Even less found any 'problem' with the President NOT acting like the Commander in Chief. In my first post about this topic, that appeared on another board, I offered the possibility that the President really isn't THE guy behind most of the intelligent leadership decisions that take place anyway, so it was probably a GOOD thing that he was doing what he does best during the 9-11 attacks- reading children's books with people who wouldn't mind or notice that he stumbled over a few words.

A couple of posters questioned the validity of the piece provided in the link. I may be wrong, but I found that each and every statement about what was happening, was annotated to whom gave the description as well as the source it was printed in.

I found the piece to be not one person's view or idea of what happened, but actually a compilation of bits and pieces of eyewitness accounts of the actual event, strung together in time line form that outlines the succeses and failures of the Administration before, during, and shortly after the attacks.

To Conspire- To plan together secretly to commit an illegal act. To join or act together.

I DO think some people worked together to keep the President from acting like such. However, I can't and wouldn't assign motive to those acts, so I won't call this a "conspiracy". That being said, I think that it is easy to see that the ◊◊◊◊ hit the fan, our pants were down, and instead of pulling them up...this Administration and its lead faltered, stumbled, f*cked around, and FAILED in its duties.

---

To Randfan:

YOU WROTE:

"The author thinks that Bush was simply unable to deal with what was happening at that time. He assigns Bush's inaction to "a profound weakness".

I don't think so. Who knows but there is nothing there for a conspiracy or proof that Bush was profoundly weak.

*You don't think President Bush sufferes and WAS severely suffering from "a profound weakness" before, during and shortly after the attacks??? So how WOULD you characterize his ability to lead and direct a nation at the this time? I find that there was a complete and utter lack of competency in the communication outlets between this Administration, The F.B.I., the C.I.A., the FAA, NORAD, the Pentagon, and the actual events.

In fact, I see nothing BUT the demonstration of a profound weakness in this leaderhsip infrastructure. Moreover, I am completly at a loss to see any kind of 'strength, wisdom, or intelligence' demonstrated what so ever. However, please feel free to point out the evidence that lead YOU to believe such.

"People are human, even presidents and in the days that followed the President rose to the occasion and I was very proud of how he reacted to the situation."

*I guess this is all about perspective. YOU and my father would probably agree whole heartedly about what a fine job the President did, and how 'well' he rose to the challenge. To the contrary, what 'I' saw was a nation and the rest of the administration rally around an individual, as a show of ultimate unity. Who COULDN'T have smiled, looked brave, and read a speech or two, while visiting rescue workers, with literally hundreds of millions people behind him and or standing shoulder to shoulder with him in absolute support!?

I believed before this, that this sitting President was THE prime example of a figure head President. A creation of Karl Rove, that was much less than a shadow and less than comparable to a Xerox copy of the former President Bush. After having read this material, my original beliefs have been re-enforced, and not at all absolved.

A 'majority' of Americans see this Commander in Chief as a stong leader.

However, I think if the honest truth was known about what he knew, when he knew it, and what he did after he knew it, that the majority of rational minded people would see that on that day he did NOT act strong, intelligent, or like the Commander in Chief. Moreover, they'd see and finally understand that THIS President, really is much less 'in charge' than previously thought.
 
I AGREE completely with this:

Taken from the link Randfan provided above, "Free Thinking in a Dirty Glass":

"Pretty thin gruel for a good conspiracy theory, I suppose. But as the Wood and Thompson point out, the real scandal is the fact that so little of what the President and his administration did on 9/11 has been properly explained or documented.

Other than putting out a few false stories to justify Bush's peripatetic wanderings, the White House has been content to leave things that way. And it wants the independent 9/11 commission it was forced to create to adopt the same don't ask, don't tell policy. So conspiracy theorists take heart: We may never know what really happened.

For me, though, the telling detail is that image of Bush in the classroom, reading The Pet Goat and desperately trying to stall the crushing responsibilities waiting for him just outside the door.

The truth, I suspect, is that Bush was petrified. Certainly, that's the impression I had when I saw him read his first, brief statement. He looked on the verge of tears.

All of us were terrified that day. A lot of us cried. The difference is that Bush was the Commander in Chief -- like it or not, our leader. Leaders are supposed to feel, or at least look, confident and resolute. Think Churchill in the Blitz, Roosevelt after Pearl Harbor, or John F. Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

But the look I saw on Bush's face the morning of 9/11 was the same look I saw on his face the night of his first debate with Al Gore. It was a look that said: "What have I gotten myself into?" It revealed a profound weakness, a kind of "mini-me" inadequacy.

Bush may not understand, but his handlers do, that this has to be concealed from the public at all cost. Since 9/11, it sometimes seems as if the entire White House press operation is now devoted to that job.

All the footage of Shrub chowing down with the troops, reviewing the troops, saluting the troops and (even more importantly) being saluted by the troops, all the endless, mindless promotion of Bush as America's Maximum Warrior -- culminating with that absurd circus stunt aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln -- all of it is designed to erase the memory of that morning, when the real President Bush's prodigal son cowered in a Florida classroom, desperately hoping the world outside would just go away.

Not much a cover up, really --- no great crime or a conspiracy. No assassinations, no secret Swiss bank accounts. A "mini-me" scandal for a "mini-me" president."
 
Re: I think...

King of the Americas said:
I just got done reading the leftover responses from yesterday, and have not visited any of the links provided, so I may have to amend this statement...

Excuse me? You demand that we read your links, but you can't find the time to visit any of ours?

And you wonder why people think you are an attention-hog, a biased conspiracy freak and a garden-variety creduloid - among other, not so nice things?
 
To CFLarsen:

I didn't say I WOULDN'T read them just because someone said I should. I said I haven't YET.

I cna say, that I HAVE, now completed my review of all of the linked material. Although most of the conspiracy stuff doesn't interest me at all.
 
King of the Americas said:
I didn't say I WOULDN'T read them just because someone said I should. I said I haven't YET.

So, how can you speak of this post "serving its purpose" (and to you, no less) and have "conclusive" feelings about it? You have freely admitted that you have not taken the time and effort to see if you could be wrong.

It's so much easier to go on believing that you are right, isn't it?

King of the Americas said:
I cna say, that I HAVE, now completed my review of all of the linked material. Although most of the conspiracy stuff doesn't interest me at all.

You post something like that without bothering to read it yourself??
 
To CFLarsen:

Upon review, the links provided had NO value in the points I made in my conclusive statement. Moreover, my statement conclusion spoke to the responses I got, NOT to the links provided.

Is THIS really valuable?

I mean, come on. You are poking the goat with this kind of crap. I read/reviewed the material provided in the links that was pertinate to the discussion at hand. I believe it was YOUR ignorant ass who said that you wouldn't read something just because someone asked or told you to.

If you don't have anything forther to add to this debate, *ABOUT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS ACTIONS SURROUNDING 9-11, then by all means:

Feel free to SHUT THE F*CK UP.
 
Re: To CFLarsen:

King of the Americas said:
Upon review, the links provided had NO value in the points I made in my conclusive statement. Moreover, my statement conclusion spoke to the responses I got, NOT to the links provided.

Is THIS really valuable?

I mean, come on. You are poking the goat with this kind of crap. I read/reviewed the material provided in the links that was pertinate to the discussion at hand. I believe it was YOUR ignorant ass who said that you wouldn't read something just because someone asked or told you to.

If you don't have anything forther to add to this debate, *ABOUT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS ACTIONS SURROUNDING 9-11, then by all means:

Feel free to SHUT THE F*CK UP.

KOA,

You are always a pleasure to debate. Not much of a challenge, but you are always good for a laugh.
 

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