This is some f*cked up ◊◊◊◊:

Re: To CFLarsen:

KOA,

Pray tell, what is the point of having a lot of people reading your stuff, if you cannot at least give them a hint what it is about?

Would you read any lengthy piece without having the slightest idea what to expect, just because people told you to?

What "ammo" are you talking about? Why are you so paranoid about facing the publicity you seek so desperately? You pop up at various times with the most silly claims, all completely lacking any kind of evidence. When trounced (and this happens every bloody time!), you disappear with complaints that nobody understands you. Then, weeks or even months after, you resurface with yet another silly claim.

As for this article, it WOULD be nice, if you could actually say what your point is. I have other things to do than to read everything that is put before me.

I simply don't have the time. But I'm happy that you do. I just wish that you also understood what you read.
 
Re: To CFLarsen:

King of the Americas said:
Pardon ME, but my motive for addressing Howard Stern was NOT to tell him what I wrote about, it ws to get HIS OPINION about the work.

No, your motive was free publicity and self-promotion. If you had been interested in his opinion (though I can't imagine what value Howard's opinion could possibly have), you wouldn't have contacted him on the air. You would have contacted him in a way that he could respond without turning you into a form of entertainment.

Only an idiot would call up Howard Stern on the air for a political discussion. Howard knows this, and he treated you accordingly. Your posts are nothing more than a cut-rate attempt to do the same thing--draw attention for loony theories that aren't otherwise attention-worthy--and again the response is the correct and appropriate one.

If it's any consolation, I find you very amusing.
 
To Jocko:

The Show called ME, that morning and I was informed by Stuttering Jon that Howard & the rest of the crew HAD read my work, and was prepared to discuss its contents.

Moreover, I wasn't JUST contacting him for an opinion, but rather 'assistance' in getting my idea into the hands of someone who could help me and my endeavor for Peace.

Always and forever, the 'mis-informationist'.
 
Long, boring

I read the ENTIRE piece. Here's my take on it:

Surface-to-air missiles were placed on the roof of the resort [Sarasota Herald-Tribune,

9/10/02], and an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) plane circled high overhead.

[Fighting Back: The War on Terrorism - From Inside the Bush White House, by Bill Sammon,

10/02, p. 25] It's not clear if this type of protection was standard for the president or

whether security was increased because of possible threats.

Of course, doing a little research to FIND OUT if this type of protection was standard would

be out of the question...


At about the same time Bush was getting ready for his jog, a van carrying several

Middle Eastern men pulled up to the Colony's guard station. The men said they were a

television news crew with a scheduled "poolside" interview with the president. They asked for

a certain Secret Service agent by name. The message was relayed to a Secret Service agent

inside the resort, who hadn't heard of the agent mentioned or of plans for an interview. He

told the men to contact the president's public relations office in Washington, DC, and had the

van turned away.

I would imagine that such wacko attempts to get close to the President are pretty common.

That's why they have Secret Service.

If this were part of the terror plot, it would have been a pretty stupid move. An

assassination would have put the entire country on heightened security alert a day before the

hijackings were planned. The element of surprise would have been lost.

Nearly three hours after the incident at the Colony, another Longboat Key resident

reported a run-in with possibly the same men. At about 8:50 (when reports of the first World

Trade Center crash were first broadcast), while standing on the Sarasota bay front waiting for

the presidential motorcade to pass by, this man saw two Middle Eastern men in a dilapidated

van "screaming out the windows 'Down with Bush' and raising their fists in the air." The FBI

questioned the man, but it's not known if this was the same van that had visited the

Colony.

The first rule of terrorism: Keep a low profile!

The plane did not obey the order and its transponder was turned off. Air traffic

control manager Glenn Michael said, "we considered it at that time to be a possible

hijacking." [AP, 8/12/02, emphasis added] According to FAA regulations, that was the correct

decision: "Consider that an aircraft emergency exists ... when ... there is unexpected loss of

radar contact and radio communications with any ... aircraft."

Of course, it's a possible hijacking. It's also a possible equipment failure, a possible

communication problem, or any number of other possibilities. The odds were, based on what was

known then, that it wasn't anything serious. After all, it had been a very, very long time

since a plane had been hijacked in the US.

If air traffic controllers believed Flight 11 had been hijacked at 8:13, NORAD should

have been informed immediately, so military planes could be scrambled to investigate. However,

NORAD and the FAA both claimed NORAD was not informed until 8:40 - 27 minutes later.

If only they'd been scrambled sooner! They might have been a few miles closer when the attack

occured! Still wouldn't have changed anything.

If they had intercepted the plane, would they have shot it down? Based on the knowledge that

they had then? I don't think so. Remember how the Soviet Union was condemned after they shot

down a KLA airliner that strayed into their airspace.


Is NORAD's claim credible? If so, the air traffic controllers (including Mr. Michael)

should have been fired and subject to possible criminal charges for their inaction. To date,

however, there has been no word of any person being disciplined at any institution at any

level for what happened on 9/11.


Again, based on what was known at the time, how could anyone have predicted what was going to

happen? Even in a relaxed work environment, it can take some time to figure out what is going

on when things don't go as planned. Saying someone SHOULD have done something, after the

fact, is 20/20 hindsight.

If NORAD's claim is false, and it was indeed informed within the time frame outlined in

FAA regulations that Flight 11 may have been hijacked, that would mean NORAD did absolutely

nothing for almost thirty minutes while a hijacked commercial airliner flew off course through

some of the most congested airspace in the world. Presumably, that would warrant some very

serious charges. Again, no one associated with NORAD or the FAA has been punished.


Unless I'm mistaken, NORAD's job is to track nuclear missiles, not regulate domestic flights.

Once again, BASED ON WHAT WE KNEW AT THE TIME, there was no reason to believe that a hijacked

airliner posed a threat to national security. And, of course, there was no rock-solid

evidence at the time that any plane HAD be hijacked.

Around the same time the Flight 11 hijackers were stabbing passenger Daniel Lewin - at

8:20 a.m. - Bush's briefing ended and he said good-bye to the Colony's general

manager.


I'm sure this was in Bush's day planner:

8:20 AM -- End briefing. Stand idly by while hijackers stab airline passenger hundreds of

miles away.


Why does it matter when Bush left the resort and arrived at the school? Because this is

the crucial time when Bush was first told, or should have been told, of the attacks. Official

accounts, including the words of Bush himself, say Bush was first told of what was happening

in New York City after he arrived at the school. [Telegraph, 12/16/01, CBS, 9/11/02] However,

this statement does not stand up to scrutiny. There are at least four reports that Bush was

told of the first crash before he arrived at the school.


So Bush may or may not have been told about a plane crash. Rarely does a plane crash require

the immediate attention of the President. Only after the second WTC crash was it apparent

that this was an attack, and it was then that Bush's full attention was placed on the

situation.


Claims of Bush's ignorance become harder to believe when one learns that others in his

motorcade were immediately told of the attack.


Yes, but it wasn't KNOWN to be an attack at that time.


A reporter who was standing nearby later said, "From the demeanor of the President,

grinning at the children, it appeared that the enormity of what he had been told was taking a

while to sink in."


These were children, and Bush is a politician. What did he expect the President to do?

Scream, "WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!"?


Bush was asked: "How did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?" Bush

replied, "I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the

tower " ...

There was no film footage of the first attack until at least the following day, and Bush

didn't have access to a television until 15 or so minutes later...
Unfortunately, Bush has never been asked - not even once - to explain these statements. His

memory not only contradicts every single media report, it also contradicts what he said that

evening.


Bush misremembered several trivial details, such as how he first heard of the attacks. So?

We all do that. Human memory is very unreliable.

Military pilots must have "permission from the White House because only the president

has the authority to order a civilian aircraft shot down." [CNN, 10/26/99] But if retaliatory

strikes needed to the authorized, Bush was not available. If one of the planes had to be shot

down to save more lives on the ground, Bush was not available. Although several fighters had

been dispatched to defend New York City, the pilot of one of the planes flying to catch Flight

175 later noted that it wouldn't have mattered if he caught up with it, because only Bush

could order a shootdown, and Bush could not be reached in the classroom.


WHAT!?! He couldn't be reached in the classroom?! Where was it, in the Himalayas? Did he have

to travel there by camel? Did the Secret Service just drop him off at the school and say,

"Pick you up in a few hours"?

Just a few paragraphs earlier, the page said:

Given all this, how could Bush have remained ignorant? Could he have been out of the

loop because he was in a car? No. The previous night, Colony Resort manager Katie Klauber

Moulon toured the presidential limousine and marveled "at all the phones and electronic

equipment." [Sarasota Magazine, 11/01] Karl Rove, Bush's "chief political strategist," who

presumably was riding with Bush, used a wireless e-mail device on 9/11 as well. [Newsweek,

10/14/02] There seems to have been ample opportunity and the means to alert Bush.


...So what, again, is the basis for the claim that he could not be reached in a classroom...?

Nearly every news account fails to mention when Bush left the classroom after being

told America was under attack. Three mention 9:12 a.m. [New York Times, 9/16/01 (B),

Telegraph, 12/16/01, Daily Mail, 9/8/02] Remaining in the classroom for approximately five to

seven minutes is inexcusable, but the video of Bush in the classroom suggests he stayed longer

than that. The video contains several edits and ends before Bush leaves the room, so it also

doesn't tell us exactly how long he stayed. One newspaper suggested he remained "for eight or

nine minutes" - sometime between 9:13 and 9:16, since Card's arrival is uncertain. [Tampa

Tribune, 9/1/02]


Yep, things would have been different if he had left five minutes earlier!


Once he was out of the classroom, did Bush immediately leave Booker? No. He stayed in

the adjacent room with his staff, calling Vice President Cheney and National Security Advisor

Rice, and preparing a speech. [Telegraph, 12/16/01, St. Petersburg Times 9/8/02] Incredibly,

even as uncertain information began to surface, suggesting that more planes had been hijacked

(eventually 11 planes would be suspected) [CBS, 9/11/02], Bush was allowed to make his remarks

at 9:30 - exactly the time and place stated on his advance schedule. [Federal News Service,

9/10/01, see the transcript of his speech here]


One more time...with WHAT WAS KNOWN AT THE TIME, the attack seemed to have been focused on the

World Trade center. It was unthinkable, even at that point, that this could be a coordinated

attack carried out at multiple geographic locations. Shortly thereafter, the Pentagon was

attacked, and, for the first time, the possibility that the President was in danger arose.

Why hasn't Bush's security staff been criticized for their completely inexplicable

decision to stay at the school?

Isn't that your job?

And why didn't Bush's concern for the children extend to not making them and the rest

of the 200 or so people at the school terrorist targets?


...? So if Bush had left immediately, the school would not have been targeted? Did the

terrorists have some sort of homing beacon placed on Bush so they could target him wherever he

was?


No media report has suggested that the possible shooting down of hijacked airplanes was

discussed at this time, however. It appears the discussion was not broached until after 9:55.

[Washington Post, 1/27/02, CBS, 9/11/02]


Obviously. Before 9/11, such a thing was unthinkable.

At about 9:26, it was either FAA head Jane Garvey or FAA administrator Ben Sliney (and

not Bush) who decided to halt all airplane takeoffs in the US. [Time, 9/14/01, USA Today,

8/13/02] Additionally, no evidence has appeared suggesting Bush had a role in ordering any

fighters into the skies.


If the President had to make ALL decisions regarding the different federal agencies, we would

run into problems very quickly. The FAA had the authority to act, so it acted. It was an

extraordinary action, one that had never been taken before, but one which was probably a

planned contingency within the FAA. It is not the sort of thing the President would order.


But, incredibly, Air Force One took off without any military fighter protection. This

defies all explanation. Recall that at 9:03 a.m., one of Bush's security people said, "We're

out of here. Can you get everyone ready?" [Sarasota Herald-Tribune, 9/10/02] Certainly, long

before Bush left the elementary school at 9:35 a.m., arrangements would have been made to get

fighters to Sarasota as soon as possible. Not only would it have been advisable to protect Air

Force One, but it would have been only sensible as another way to protect Bush on the ground

from terrorist attack even before he left the school.


After criticizing the President for hanging around the school too long, he now expects him to

wait around for a military escort. Think about this. While Air Force One is one the ground,

it is a sitting duck. When it takes off, what are the terrorists going to do? How would they

find it? If they found it, what would they do with it? It's one thing to crash into a

building, but another thing entirely to overtake and crash into a 747 with an experienced

pilot behind the wheel.


If we assume the fighters flew at a speed of 1,100 mph, the same speed Major Gen.

Arnold said fighters used to reach New York City earlier in the day when traveling a

comparable distance [MSNBC, 9/23/01 (C), Slate, 1/16/02], the fighters should have reached

Sarasota in about 10 minutes. Yet they took around two hours to reach Air Force One from when

they were likely first needed, shortly after 9:00.


...And what would they do when they got there? The decision to get Air Force One airborne had

not been made yet. Jets flying at 1100 mph run out of fuel very fast. Trying to coordinate a

rendezvous like this is more complicated than it might seem. With spur-of-the-moment

decisions being made, it would be extremely difficult for the fighters to arrive at just the

right moment to escort Air Force One on takeoff. If the fighters don't know how long they

might be aloft, they might sacrifice speed for fuel efficiency. After all, at the time it was

not known that the President's plane could be in danger.


Sandra Kay Daniels, the teacher whose second-grade classroom Bush visited on 9/11, told

the Los Angeles Times that after Card informed Bush of the second crash, Bush got up and left.

"He said, 'Ms. Daniels, I have to leave now.' ... Looking at his face, you knew something was

wrong. I said a little prayer for him. He shook my hand and left." Daniels also said, "I knew

something was up when President Bush didn't pick up the book and participate in the lesson."

[Los Angeles Times, 9/11/02] However, the Booker video clearly shows that Bush did follow

along after being told of the second plane.


So a second-grade teacher is in on the conspiracy? I think faulty memory, again.

Bush himself took part in the historical revisionism. In an extensive video interview

shown on CBS's "60 Minutes," he again repeated his bizarre belief that he was watching

television when the first crash took place. CBS also revived the false story that terrorists

had broken Air Force One's secret codes, even though it was CBS who debunked that same story

nearly a year earlier.


So? Does it make the SLIGHTEST BIT OF DIFFERENCE how Bush learned of the first crash?

How is this historical revisionism? Does he really think that one day history books will read:

"The President was watching television when it happened"?

It's doubtful that the Independent Commission investigation will look critically at

what Bush did on 9/11 and why he did it. Despite the contradictory reports, no one in the

mainstream media has yet demanded clarification of the many obvious inconsistencies and

problems of the official version. Anyone even asking questions has been quickly insulted as

anti-American, accused of bashing the president in a time of war, or branded a conspiracy nut.

Why do we need clarification of a hodge-podge of mundane details? I don't think it's

anti-American, I just think it's a waste of time.

The ridiculous thing about this whole article is that it make the presumption that a huge,

unweildy organization such as the executive branch of the US government can be expected to

react with great precision and speed to an completely unforseen disaster. Even when

large-scale operations involving the military and numerous other agencies are PLANNED, it is

still almost impossible to get everything just right. 9/11 was a chaotic time, and it is

unreasonable to expect a robotic, synchronized response.
 
Re: To Jocko:

King of the Americas said:

Moreover, I wasn't JUST contacting him for an opinion, but rather 'assistance' in getting my idea into the hands of someone who could help me and my endeavor for Peace.

In other words, you were looking for free publicity, just like I said. I find it strange you post that as a denial, when just a second ago you said,

King of the Americas said:


Pardon ME, but my motive for addressing Howard Stern was NOT to tell him what I wrote about, it ws to get HIS OPINION about the work.

Which is it?

Always and forever, the 'mis-informationist'.

And as always, you are forever the backpeddler. But you remain amusing. Keep up the good work, KOA.
 
About Bush saying he saw the first plane hit the tower, I think that has more to do with his grammatical skills than his memory. If you read the transcript it is pretty obvious what he was trying to say.
 
I found MUCH to disagree wht you about in your retorts.

One of the most irritating remarks was this one:

"Bush misremembered several trivial details, such as how he first heard of the attacks. So?

We all do that. Human memory is very unreliable. "

*Are you telling me or suggesting that the Leader of the Free world can't and or doesn't remember how he found out about the 9-11 attacks!?

I, the simple man that I am didn't have a speaking engagements that day, nor any speeches to memorize, but I AM able to recall how I found out we were attacked. Moreover, I think given the weight of this event, I say you'd be hard pressed to find ANY American who 'isn't exactly sure' how they heard about 9-11.

What I see in your retort is 'excuses' for the lack of accuracy in the telling of the 9-11 tale.

I AM working on a full response, line per line of your work, but jus to address your closing statement:

"Why do we need clarification of a hodge-podge of mundane details? I don't think it's

anti-American, I just think it's a waste of time. "

*It is a waste of time to know and understand the True nature of the events of 9-11 and how our leader 'handled the situation'. Okay...

The ridiculous thing about this whole article is that it make the presumption that a huge,

unweildy organization such as the executive branch of the US government can be expected to

react with great precision and speed to an completely unforseen disaster."

*I disagree with your stance that this was an "completely unforseen disaster. SEVERAL people have written about this possibility in memos delivered to The White House prior to 9-11.

"Even when large-scale operations involving the military and numerous other agencies are PLANNED, it is

still almost impossible to get everything just right. 9/11 was a chaotic time, and it is

unreasonable to expect a robotic, synchronized response. "

*Funny, that is EXACTLY what I expect from the most powerful government in our world's history.
 
Well, I'll tell you this much. My sense of time about the attack on the Pentagon is all out of whack.

I was watching the TV about the NYC situation, and then walked up the hall to the cafeteria. That's when the plane hit us. We were evacuated out, and I remember the smoke against the sky, and I worked security at the crash site, recovered part of the airplane, helped a bit with the wounded, etc., but I can't really put a time line on it, it all runs together.

I remember standing at my security post, lifting the yellow tape so an ambulance could get out, and I remember the cop coming by saying another airplane was 20 minutes out, and headed at us. I remember standing there, very scared, as I thought the next impact point could be at my post. And I remember a moment of stark terror when I heard a jet. I swung my head up, and saw that it was an F-16. I then felt relief because another airliner could not get to me. Then, I immediately felt a wave of overwhelming guilt, as I realized that I was happy an F-16 would be able to shoot down a plane full of innocent people. All those emotions happened within 30 seconds, but I can't possibly tell you how long I stood there before being sent away, how long after the attack the F-16 showed up, and at what point I heard the most horrible sound I've ever heard-the roof falling in on people. So, my point is that I was live and up close to 9/11 and have absolutely no sense of time for those hours. I think it quite reasonable that others are the same.

And on a purely personal note, I've very tired of folks like the ones who made this website dragging 9/11 into loony stories and improbable consperacies. To me, and my admittedly biased view, this smacks of dishonoring the memory of the dead and wounded.
 
aggle_rithm
Scholar

Registered: Apr 2003
Location:
Posts: 113
Long, boring
I read the ENTIRE piece. Here's my take on it:



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surface-to-air missiles were placed on the roof of the resort [Sarasota Herald-Tribune,

9/10/02], and an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) plane circled high overhead.

[Fighting Back: The War on Terrorism - From Inside the Bush White House, by Bill Sammon,

10/02, p. 25] It's not clear if this type of protection was standard for the president or

whether security was increased because of possible threats.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Of course, doing a little research to FIND OUT if this type of protection was standard would

be out of the question...

*Okay, but let's continue...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At about the same time Bush was getting ready for his jog, a van carrying several

Middle Eastern men pulled up to the Colony's guard station. The men said they were a

television news crew with a scheduled "poolside" interview with the president. They asked for

a certain Secret Service agent by name. The message was relayed to a Secret Service agent

inside the resort, who hadn't heard of the agent mentioned or of plans for an interview. He

told the men to contact the president's public relations office in Washington, DC, and had the

van turned away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I would imagine that such wacko attempts to get close to the President are pretty common.

That's why they have Secret Service.

If this were part of the terror plot, it would have been a pretty stupid move. An

assassination would have put the entire country on heightened security alert a day before the

hijackings were planned. The element of surprise would have been lost.

*I don't know how often these kinds of things happen, but that it did happen on this day is an interesting point, when placed along-side the rest of the evidence presented.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly three hours after the incident at the Colony, another Longboat Key resident

reported a run-in with possibly the same men. At about 8:50 (when reports of the first World

Trade Center crash were first broadcast), while standing on the Sarasota bay front waiting for

the presidential motorcade to pass by, this man saw two Middle Eastern men in a dilapidated

van "screaming out the windows 'Down with Bush' and raising their fists in the air." The FBI

questioned the man, but it's not known if this was the same van that had visited the

Colony.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The first rule of terrorism: Keep a low profile!

*Did you get that from the Al-caeda handbook? I don't see ANY reason to believe that ALL terrorists are or act 'intelligently'.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The plane did not obey the order and its transponder was turned off. Air traffic

control manager Glenn Michael said, "we considered it at that time to be a possible

hijacking." [AP, 8/12/02, emphasis added] According to FAA regulations, that was the correct

decision: "Consider that an aircraft emergency exists ... when ... there is unexpected loss of

radar contact and radio communications with any ... aircraft."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Of course, it's a possible hijacking. It's also a possible equipment failure, a possible

communication problem, or any number of other possibilities. The odds were, based on what was

known then, that it wasn't anything serious. After all, it had been a very, very long time

since a plane had been hijacked in the US.

*I don't think the issue is what is possible at that moment. The issue or point being made is what the Rules say to do in just such a situation.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If air traffic controllers believed Flight 11 had been hijacked at 8:13, NORAD should

have been informed immediately, so military planes could be scrambled to investigate. However,

NORAD and the FAA both claimed NORAD was not informed until 8:40 - 27 minutes later.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If only they'd been scrambled sooner! They might have been a few miles closer when the attack

occured! Still wouldn't have changed anything.

If they had intercepted the plane, would they have shot it down? Based on the knowledge that

they had then? I don't think so. Remember how the Soviet Union was condemned after they shot

down a KLA airliner that strayed into their airspace.

*Again, you missed the point. Nothing was 'scrambled', TO have been scrambled 'sooner'.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is NORAD's claim credible? If so, the air traffic controllers (including Mr. Michael)

should have been fired and subject to possible criminal charges for their inaction. To date,

however, there has been no word of any person being disciplined at any institution at any

level for what happened on 9/11.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Again, based on what was known at the time, how could anyone have predicted what was going to

happen? Even in a relaxed work environment, it can take some time to figure out what is going

on when things don't go as planned. Saying someone SHOULD have done something, after the

fact, is 20/20 hindsight.

*I disagree. The Rules state that you do C if A & B occure. The piece draws attention to the 'delay' in following those Rules.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If NORAD's claim is false, and it was indeed informed within the time frame outlined in

FAA regulations that Flight 11 may have been hijacked, that would mean NORAD did absolutely

nothing for almost thirty minutes while a hijacked commercial airliner flew off course through

some of the most congested airspace in the world. Presumably, that would warrant some very

serious charges. Again, no one associated with NORAD or the FAA has been punished.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Unless I'm mistaken, NORAD's job is to track nuclear missiles, not regulate domestic flights.

Once again, BASED ON WHAT WE KNEW AT THE TIME, there was no reason to believe that a hijacked

airliner posed a threat to national security. And, of course, there was no rock-solid

evidence at the time that any plane HAD be hijacked.

*Other than the Rules that say you should 'believe' a plane is hijacked if their transpoder is turned off and they are refusing communication attempts.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Around the same time the Flight 11 hijackers were stabbing passenger Daniel Lewin - at

8:20 a.m. - Bush's briefing ended and he said good-bye to the Colony's general

manager.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I'm sure this was in Bush's day planner:

8:20 AM -- End briefing. Stand idly by while hijackers stab airline passenger hundreds of

miles away.

*I don't think that was the point being made either... The point friend, is that he is being briefed about a possibility, while the real thing is going on, and yet he remains ignorant about the actual event for sometime.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does it matter when Bush left the resort and arrived at the school? Because this is

the crucial time when Bush was first told, or should have been told, of the attacks. Official

accounts, including the words of Bush himself, say Bush was first told of what was happening

in New York City after he arrived at the school. [Telegraph, 12/16/01, CBS, 9/11/02] However,

this statement does not stand up to scrutiny. There are at least four reports that Bush was

told of the first crash before he arrived at the school.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




So Bush may or may not have been told about a plane crash. Rarely does a plane crash require

the immediate attention of the President.

*When the plane is an airliner, and it crashes intot he cornerstone of western capitalism... I THINK that should send up a red flag, and call for some kind of action OTHER than reading with children from the President.

Only after the second WTC crash was it apparent

that this was an attack, and it was then that Bush's full attention was placed on the

situation.

*And what the piece argues is that it SHOULD have been much sooner.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claims of Bush's ignorance become harder to believe when one learns that others in his

motorcade were immediately told of the attack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yes, but it wasn't KNOWN to be an attack at that time.

*I disagree. There is plenty of evidence to believe that plenty of people were aware of a hijacking as well as the knowlege that it was indeed an attack of some kind.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A reporter who was standing nearby later said, "From the demeanor of the President,

grinning at the children, it appeared that the enormity of what he had been told was taking a

while to sink in."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




These were children, and Bush is a politician. What did he expect the President to do?

Scream, "WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!"?

*Of course not, but simply excusing oneself to tend to more improtant matters than reading a story about a goat with children doesn't seem that much of a stretch for the Leader of the Free World.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bush was asked: "How did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?" Bush

replied, "I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the

tower " ...

There was no film footage of the first attack until at least the following day, and Bush

didn't have access to a television until 15 or so minutes later...
Unfortunately, Bush has never been asked - not even once - to explain these statements. His

memory not only contradicts every single media report, it also contradicts what he said that

evening.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Bush misremembered several trivial details, such as how he first heard of the attacks. So?

We all do that. Human memory is very unreliable.

*Already responded to above.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Military pilots must have "permission from the White House because only the president

has the authority to order a civilian aircraft shot down." [CNN, 10/26/99] But if retaliatory

strikes needed to the authorized, Bush was not available. If one of the planes had to be shot

down to save more lives on the ground, Bush was not available. Although several fighters had

been dispatched to defend New York City, the pilot of one of the planes flying to catch Flight

175 later noted that it wouldn't have mattered if he caught up with it, because only Bush

could order a shootdown, and Bush could not be reached in the classroom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




WHAT!?! He couldn't be reached in the classroom?! Where was it, in the Himalayas? Did he have

to travel there by camel? Did the Secret Service just drop him off at the school and say,

"Pick you up in a few hours"?

Just a few paragraphs earlier, the page said:

*I think what the writer means, is that he wasn't in a situation room atmopshere FOR him to be able to comment on show and what should be shoot down.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given all this, how could Bush have remained ignorant? Could he have been out of the

loop because he was in a car? No. The previous night, Colony Resort manager Katie Klauber

Moulon toured the presidential limousine and marveled "at all the phones and electronic

equipment." [Sarasota Magazine, 11/01] Karl Rove, Bush's "chief political strategist," who

presumably was riding with Bush, used a wireless e-mail device on 9/11 as well. [Newsweek,

10/14/02] There seems to have been ample opportunity and the means to alert Bush.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




...So what, again, is the basis for the claim that he could not be reached in a classroom...?

*Again, I think it would be unreasonable to have the President answer a direct question about whether or not to shoot down an airliner, in front of a room full of elementary school kids.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly every news account fails to mention when Bush left the classroom after being

told America was under attack. Three mention 9:12 a.m. [New York Times, 9/16/01 (B),

Telegraph, 12/16/01, Daily Mail, 9/8/02] Remaining in the classroom for approximately five to

seven minutes is inexcusable, but the video of Bush in the classroom suggests he stayed longer

than that. The video contains several edits and ends before Bush leaves the room, so it also

doesn't tell us exactly how long he stayed. One newspaper suggested he remained "for eight or

nine minutes" - sometime between 9:13 and 9:16, since Card's arrival is uncertain. [Tampa

Tribune, 9/1/02]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yep, things would have been different if he had left five minutes earlier!

*I guess we'll never know. But AGAIN, the point is addressing the delay and appearant inaction taken by the President after hearing we were under attack. As the Commander in Chief, shouldn't he have at the very least shortened the photo-op???

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once he was out of the classroom, did Bush immediately leave Booker? No. He stayed in

the adjacent room with his staff, calling Vice President Cheney and National Security Advisor

Rice, and preparing a speech. [Telegraph, 12/16/01, St. Petersburg Times 9/8/02] Incredibly,

even as uncertain information began to surface, suggesting that more planes had been hijacked

(eventually 11 planes would be suspected) [CBS, 9/11/02], Bush was allowed to make his remarks

at 9:30 - exactly the time and place stated on his advance schedule. [Federal News Service,

9/10/01, see the transcript of his speech here]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




One more time...with WHAT WAS KNOWN AT THE TIME, the attack seemed to have been focused on the

World Trade center. It was unthinkable, even at that point, that this could be a coordinated

attack carried out at multiple geographic locations. Shortly thereafter, the Pentagon was

attacked, and, for the first time, the possibility that the President was in danger arose.

*Appearantly, you are suffering from the same kind of information gap that the President was suffering from, in appearance. This discussion is about what WAS known by whom, and how the President reacted to the situation as it unfolded. To hear that the WTC was hit by an airliner...given the prior memos and warnings, and the fact that when it happened several other planes were KNOWN to be off course... Sorry guy I see some real problems with your WHAT WAS KNOWN AT THE TIME crap.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why hasn't Bush's security staff been criticized for their completely inexplicable

decision to stay at the school?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Isn't that your job?

*OUR job, my friend.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And why didn't Bush's concern for the children extend to not making them and the rest

of the 200 or so people at the school terrorist targets?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




...? So if Bush had left immediately, the school would not have been targeted? Did the

terrorists have some sort of homing beacon placed on Bush so they could target him wherever he

was?

*I think the point is that if a bully beats down your brother right in front of you, you shouldn't stand among children, as he points to you and says "You're next."


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No media report has suggested that the possible shooting down of hijacked airplanes was

discussed at this time, however. It appears the discussion was not broached until after 9:55.

[Washington Post, 1/27/02, CBS, 9/11/02]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Obviously. Before 9/11, such a thing was unthinkable.

*That is why there are rules in place that say exactly how to deal with these situations.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At about 9:26, it was either FAA head Jane Garvey or FAA administrator Ben Sliney (and

not Bush) who decided to halt all airplane takeoffs in the US. [Time, 9/14/01, USA Today,

8/13/02] Additionally, no evidence has appeared suggesting Bush had a role in ordering any

fighters into the skies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




If the President had to make ALL decisions regarding the different federal agencies, we would

run into problems very quickly. The FAA had the authority to act, so it acted. It was an

extraordinary action, one that had never been taken before, but one which was probably a

planned contingency within the FAA. It is not the sort of thing the President would order.

*It is clear that you aren't familiar with the Rules of Engagment for Military against its own civilians.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, incredibly, Air Force One took off without any military fighter protection. This

defies all explanation. Recall that at 9:03 a.m., one of Bush's security people said, "We're

out of here. Can you get everyone ready?" [Sarasota Herald-Tribune, 9/10/02] Certainly, long

before Bush left the elementary school at 9:35 a.m., arrangements would have been made to get

fighters to Sarasota as soon as possible. Not only would it have been advisable to protect Air

Force One, but it would have been only sensible as another way to protect Bush on the ground

from terrorist attack even before he left the school.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




After criticizing the President for hanging around the school too long, he now expects him to

wait around for a military escort. Think about this. While Air Force One is one the ground,

it is a sitting duck.

*The fact is that while on the ground Air Force One is capable of withstanding a direct nuclear attack. In the air, it is much more vunerable to an airborn attack without fighter excort.

When it takes off, what are the terrorists going to do? How would they

find it? If they found it, what would they do with it? It's one thing to crash into a

building, but another thing entirely to overtake and crash into a 747 with an experienced

pilot behind the wheel.

*Again, at this point is wasindeed inclear what wasin the air, as well as what its intentions were. On the ground was the safest place for AF-1, without fighter escort.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we assume the fighters flew at a speed of 1,100 mph, the same speed Major Gen.

Arnold said fighters used to reach New York City earlier in the day when traveling a

comparable distance [MSNBC, 9/23/01 (C), Slate, 1/16/02], the fighters should have reached

Sarasota in about 10 minutes. Yet they took around two hours to reach Air Force One from when

they were likely first needed, shortly after 9:00.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




...And what would they do when they got there? The decision to get Air Force One airborne had

not been made yet. Jets flying at 1100 mph run out of fuel very fast. Trying to coordinate a

rendezvous like this is more complicated than it might seem. With spur-of-the-moment

decisions being made, it would be extremely difficult for the fighters to arrive at just the

right moment to escort Air Force One on takeoff. If the fighters don't know how long they

might be aloft, they might sacrifice speed for fuel efficiency. After all, at the time it was

not known that the President's plane could be in danger.

*I disagree, at this point is was known that our government ans its institutions WERE under attack. You fail to address the inconsistancy in scrambling some jets at top speed, while the ones sent to the aid of AF-1 slumber along at an 'efficient pace'.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandra Kay Daniels, the teacher whose second-grade classroom Bush visited on 9/11, told

the Los Angeles Times that after Card informed Bush of the second crash, Bush got up and left.

"He said, 'Ms. Daniels, I have to leave now.' ... Looking at his face, you knew something was

wrong. I said a little prayer for him. He shook my hand and left." Daniels also said, "I knew

something was up when President Bush didn't pick up the book and participate in the lesson."

[Los Angeles Times, 9/11/02] However, the Booker video clearly shows that Bush did follow

along after being told of the second plane.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




So a second-grade teacher is in on the conspiracy? I think faulty memory, again.

*Please find me ANYONE who can say, "Oh yeah, I met with the President that day, but I am kinda of unclear as to what else happened that day, or when it happened.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bush himself took part in the historical revisionism. In an extensive video interview

shown on CBS's "60 Minutes," he again repeated his bizarre belief that he was watching

television when the first crash took place. CBS also revived the false story that terrorists

had broken Air Force One's secret codes, even though it was CBS who debunked that same story

nearly a year earlier.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




So? Does it make the SLIGHTEST BIT OF DIFFERENCE how Bush learned of the first crash?

*ABSOLUTELY. Why? Because HE is our elected *sniker* leader, and we expect him to know, and be involved in planning and reacting to an attack on our homeland.

How is this historical revisionism? Does he really think that one day history books will read:

"The President was watching television when it happened"?

*I don't know what the books will say tomorrow. The point you failed to address is the disconnect present in what actually happened, and what television, print media, and the President says happened when it happened and what the President was aware of.
 
To Hal:

So the 'elapsed time' may have excaped your memory, but did HOW you found out about the attack do so as well?

Time misplacement is common. Making up or not remember HOW you heard or was informed about THIS event is NOt a common thing.
 
To CFLarsen:

KOA,

Pray tell, what is the point of having a lot of people reading your stuff, if you cannot at least give them a hint what it is about?

*You are misrepresenting my stance. I was told Howard and his crew READ my material, and I wasn't calling to tell him what was in the material nor was I doing to to tell him why it was important he read it.

The link above recounts, in annotated style what events unfolded and the reports that stated when it did so, around 9-11 and the President's actions.

And YES, I usually read stuff that 'several people' suggest I read, usually.
 
Re: To Hal:

King of the Americas said:
So the 'elapsed time' may have excaped your memory, but did HOW you found out about the attack do so as well?

Time misplacement is common. Making up or not remember HOW you heard or was informed about THIS event is NOt a common thing.

Well, in fairness to the President, I found out about it when a big friggin airplane crashed into my building, not when one of many possible aides whispers into my ear.

and I'll edit this to add, after having read your comments in the very, very long post above, that you seem to demonstrate very little actual understanding of military operations. For example, to suggest that AF1 could withstand a nuke on the ground but is more at risk in the air is to misunderstand about as much as is humanly possible. This analysis suggests a stunning lack of understanding of how we operate. In an emergency situation, the very first thing we want to do is get POTUS airborne. I shall not comment further on your 'analysis' other than to say that while you may want to continue to argue your point, you should really check your data more carefully. You are way, way off. Nothing personal :), just a comment on your data, not you.:)
 
Mike B. said:
Hey KOA, you were on Howard Stern?

Can I watch you on the E channel?

No, but if you PM me I can get you an MP3 of his call. Only ask for it if you want to know what the voice of idiocy truly sounds like.


EDITED TO ADD: In retrospect, it would be fair for me to ask KOA's permission before I offered this sound file to anyone who asked for it.

But then again, since KOA thinks copyright laws are the antichrist and all ideas in all media should be for all the people without charge, I won't bother to ask.

Irony provided free of charge.
 
To Hal:

And with all due respect to your position, I don't think you were in a position of leadership, expected to Command a Nation, and thus NEED to be fully informed about what is going on in regards to an attack under way.

How 'soon' to you think Donald Rumsfeld was briefed upon where these planes were headed, and the possibility that we were under attack?

And WHAT should the Commander in Chief been doing after he found out about the possibility of an attack?

Reading a story about a goat with children...?

Pardon me, sir. But THAT just doesn't sit well with me..
 
Although the footage of the first plane hitting WTC was not available until a few days after the attack, the footage of the burning building was available within minutes. It is possible Bush saw that, and misspoke when he said he saw the plane actually hit the tower.

As to how people's reactions to the news: I was driving in to work, and heard on NPR that a plane hit WTC, no other news were available. I assumed it was one of those tiny single engine tourist planes, felt bad for the pilot, and started working. I tried checking CNN, but all the news sites were unavailable due to heavy traffic. Even then I did not think twice about. I finally found out when a coworker ducked into my office and asked whether I heard from my parents, who work in NYC. I was not sure why she was asking, and she told me the story. It took me 8 hours to reach my mother, who works 2 blocks from the WTC. Worst 8 hours of my life. It took me weeks to track down all my friends in NY. A high school schoolmate was at WTC. He had 8 month old twins. People who speculate on the disaster purely for self promotion make me ill.
 
Do you wish to stand by your statement that AF1 is safer on the ground than in the air? and that it can withstand a nuke on the ground?
 
To Hal:

Admittedly, I will conceed that I am much less than fully briefed about AF-1 and where it is safe.

My understanding about procedure and AF-1 capabilities comes solely from things like the History Channel's Airforce Onethe Flying Command Center.

I have nothing further to add, other than to say that I THOUGHT the documentary mentioned that AF-1 'always flys with fighter escorts'. However, I am completely comfortable recanting my statements, and referring to your superior knowledge upon the subject.

IS AF-1 capable of withstanding a direct nuclear attack?
 
I don't think the issue is what is possible at that moment. The issue or point being made is what the Rules say to do in just such a situation.


I must have missed something. What are these Rules you keep talking about?


*I think what the writer means, is that he wasn't in a situation room atmopshere FOR him to be able to comment on show and what should be shoot down.

Oh, I see. What...? :confused:



*I think the point is that if a bully beats down your brother right in front of you, you shouldn't stand among children, as he points to you and says "You're next."

Hmm... maybe I'm dense, but I completely missed that point.


*That is why there are rules in place that say exactly how to deal with these situations.

....where?

*It is clear that you aren't familiar with the Rules of Engagment for Military against its own civilians.

?????


*The fact is that while on the ground Air Force One is capable of withstanding a direct nuclear attack. In the air, it is much more vunerable to an airborn attack without fighter excort.


I think you're confused here. Air Force One is shielded against the EM pulse of a nuclear attack, but a direct blast would pretty much incinerate it.
 

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