Surely no one could be that stupid to believe he can psychically read where the bullet is.
russian roulette
russian roulette
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
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I've seen performers do this sort of thing before, and on television, too. One fellow who saw a performer perform a stunt like this said, "Oh, for crying out loud, he can see whether or not there's going to be a bullet in the chamber by looking at the cylinder!" (Whether this was how the stunt was actually performed or not, I don't know.)
Anyway, it seemed like a pretty lame trick to both of us. It was too melodramatic. Now, it's possible that Brown (no relation) has come up with a new twist on the trick, but I suspect it would still be a pretty lame trick.
Anyway, it seemed like a pretty lame trick to both of us. It was too melodramatic. Now, it's possible that Brown (no relation) has come up with a new twist on the trick, but I suspect it would still be a pretty lame trick.
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
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Yeah, I saw one guy who did this trick who (probably)used fake bullets. The basic idea behind his "trick" was that the gun would be loaded with real bullets and blanks. So that the guy loading the gun (the obligatory local police officer) did not know whether he was loading the gun with blanks or real bullets, the blanks and the bullets looked exactly the same. My immediate suspicion was that all of the bullets, including the supposedly "real" ones, were blanks. Nothing that followed swayed me from that suspicion.Pyrrho said:
The magician had the gun fired at himself. He was unhurt, because there was a blank in the chamber. The magician then "proved" that the next bullet was real by aiming the gun at a balloon and firing. The balloon popped! (Of course, the balloon popped just a split second before the magician actually fired, but what the hey.)
Lame, lame, lame.
I've seen a similar trick where a magician marks a bullet, puts it in a gun (muzzle loader), has an assistant shoot the bullet through a piece of glass, shattering it, then the magician "catches" the bullet in his teeth. Of course, the trick is the bullet was palmed, placed in the mouth, and the only thing shot was a blank. The glass is broken electronically via a wire on the trigger.
arcticpenguin
Philosopher
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I remember reading once about a rodeo clown who was killed by a fake shotgun cartridge. The wadding went straight into his heart.Pyrrho said:
Brown's schtick is not psychic readings, but mentalism. The impression he gives is not that he's doing 'magic', he makes no bones about it being a trick. What I think is quite clever about what he does is that everything is presented as if he is a master manipulator of the human mind, an expert in body language and obscure psychological truths that allows him to 'read' minds and control people.BTox said:
Not being a magician, I have no idea which of his tricks (if any) really are about psychological manipulation and which are more traditional efforts, but he's managed to carve himself a distinctive niche and get some magic on TV, and on Channel 4, no less, which is an achievement. And it's pretty entertaining.
edited for formatting
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
There's a show that's been airing on one of those "discovery" channels on cable, called "secrets of magic". Pretty good, it gives the history of famous tricks, comments by current working magicians, and so forth. Commentators include Penn and Teller, as you might imagine.
They did a whole segment on the "bullet catch" trick, and included a number of accidental fatalities over the years.
If Hexum's death by blank was odd, consider the odd circumstances of Jason Lee's death while filming the Crow.
The script called for the bad guy to load his .44 magnum revolver.
The actor did so, using dummy cartridges, as per normal proceedure. After the scene, the weapon was unloaded by the firearms tech and reloaded with blanks, as the next scene involved him shooting at the "Crow".
The tech was apparently incompetent or unobservant (or both) since he did not notice that one of the bullets had come out of one of the dummy cartridges, and was lodged in the cylinder's "throat" area.
The weapon was reloaded with blanks.
The shooting scene was started, and the actor fired several rounds, one of which was the bullet-over-blank. The blank cartridge drove the loose bullet fatally into Lee's body.
Odd stuff. What are the chances of the right chamber "coming up?" (well, 1 in 6...) Or, that the actor would actually hit Lee?''
(it's not like they're really aiming, in most cases)
Or that the gun didn't blow up. Blank powder is extremely "fast", in that it must produce a loud report and muzzle flash without any projectile. It's occasionaly happened that such rounds have been made up by foolish or ill-informed reloaders, with tragic results.
I don't know if the lawsuits have been settled yet.
They did a whole segment on the "bullet catch" trick, and included a number of accidental fatalities over the years.
If Hexum's death by blank was odd, consider the odd circumstances of Jason Lee's death while filming the Crow.
The script called for the bad guy to load his .44 magnum revolver.
The actor did so, using dummy cartridges, as per normal proceedure. After the scene, the weapon was unloaded by the firearms tech and reloaded with blanks, as the next scene involved him shooting at the "Crow".
The tech was apparently incompetent or unobservant (or both) since he did not notice that one of the bullets had come out of one of the dummy cartridges, and was lodged in the cylinder's "throat" area.
The weapon was reloaded with blanks.
The shooting scene was started, and the actor fired several rounds, one of which was the bullet-over-blank. The blank cartridge drove the loose bullet fatally into Lee's body.
Odd stuff. What are the chances of the right chamber "coming up?" (well, 1 in 6...) Or, that the actor would actually hit Lee?''
(it's not like they're really aiming, in most cases)
Or that the gun didn't blow up. Blank powder is extremely "fast", in that it must produce a loud report and muzzle flash without any projectile. It's occasionaly happened that such rounds have been made up by foolish or ill-informed reloaders, with tragic results.
I don't know if the lawsuits have been settled yet.
davidhorman
Muse
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Not 1 in 6, if he fired several rounds. It'd be (number of rounds fired) in 6.
I'm sure I've seen Derren Brown do this trick before. He went through, click click click, and then fired the live bullet through a piece of glass. Or maybe it was Simon Drake, sounds like the sort of thing he'd do.
David
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
Hehe- now you know why I don't gamble....
Cartridges are easy enough to rig; you can even deactivate apparently-live primers easily enough.
I'm trying to remember the details of one of the other accidental deaths of a magician doing the bullet-catch trick.
He used, as I recall, a muzzle-loading rifle. The rifle was gaffed in such a way that the powder charge and bullet went into a false barrell, while the barrell fired during the performance was a phoney, firing through the ramrod hole. (the discharge, with lots of black-powder smoke, couldn't be seen by the audience.
Evidently, over the years, sufficient powder "leaked" into the actual barrell of the weapon, and a flashover ignited it, propelling the real bullet to the unfortunate fellow's doom.
Penn and Teller do a nifty turn where they fire at each other!
Cartridges are easy enough to rig; you can even deactivate apparently-live primers easily enough.
I'm trying to remember the details of one of the other accidental deaths of a magician doing the bullet-catch trick.
He used, as I recall, a muzzle-loading rifle. The rifle was gaffed in such a way that the powder charge and bullet went into a false barrell, while the barrell fired during the performance was a phoney, firing through the ramrod hole. (the discharge, with lots of black-powder smoke, couldn't be seen by the audience.
Evidently, over the years, sufficient powder "leaked" into the actual barrell of the weapon, and a flashover ignited it, propelling the real bullet to the unfortunate fellow's doom.
Penn and Teller do a nifty turn where they fire at each other!
Peter Morris
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"I'm trying to remember the details of one of the other accidental deaths of a magician doing the bullet-catch trick."
Chung Ling Soo.
Chung Ling Soo.
I saw this done last night on channel 4 - it was brilliant television.
The hour long show consisted mainly of Derren Brown choosing the person who would choose what chamber to put the bullet in.
He started with 100 people (selected from 12,000 applicants) and perfomed a number of mind games or tests to whittle them down.
As he did that he did a number of his 'tricks' such as predicting what sort of face one of the contestants would draw on a pad and also what colour chair each of 5 finalists would choose to sit in. Like someone who posted above I don't know how much of this is genuine psychology and how much in conjuring but it was entertaining and impressive stuff.
The tension built as he chose the final person. He asked them to think of any word and by looking at their eyes on a video monitor (apparantly) he wrote down in full view what he thought they were thinking. He was right or close on three out of the five if I remember rightly. He then chose his finalist.
The live section of the show saw the two men sit at a table with a revolver in front of them. The armourer came in and loaded one live cartridge into the revolver and fired it at a sandbag. A hole appeared and a blackened cartridge was emptied out of the revolver.
The Volunteer then chose one cartridge and the armourer left.
The volunteer had checked (rather quickly to be honest) that there were no hidden cameras under the table. He then took the revolver and placed a cartridge in one of the chnmbers while holding both under the table so that Derren couldn't see. The chambers were numbered 1 to 6 and Derren told the volunteer to repeat the number to himself over and over agin to fasten it in his mind - and to double check that he had loaded the right one.
Then (still under the table) the volunteer loaded a sleeve onto the revolver which blocked the view of the chambers from either end of the gun and was asked to check that there was nothing visible. Then he put the gun back on the table.
Derren gave him a nice speach about how it wouldn't be his fault if Derren blew his head off and then sent the volunteer to sit behind a bullet proof screen. He then asked the volunteer to count slowly from 1 to 6 saying 'Don't try to help me or give me a clue. If you do that you will confuse me and its very important that I should not be confused'
After that Derren said "I think Chamber 3 is safe" and he turned the revolver to that chamber. After a pause he put the pistol to his head and pulled the trigger.
click
Then he paused again and then picked up the gun and pulled the trigger
click
More of a pause and then he put the gun to his head. Looked unceetain and aimed the gun at the sandbags. He flicnched as he pulled the trigger
click
So he'd been wrong about that. He now paused for a full 2 minutes at least. No music, no commentary no drumroll, no movement. Electric.
Then he picked the gun up really quickly put it to his head and fired
click
He aimed at the sandbags
Bang.
He gets up and hugs the volunteer. The credits roll.
I've described it in detail to make a few points:
1. Derren never claims to be psychic. He explains how he does what he does (sometimes) and its always based on psychology.
2. This might have been a magic trick rather than a stunt - I have no clue. I'd be interested to hear views
3. As television it was everything magic has ceased to be. It had a real sense of danger. If Derren was acting his tension before firing the last time he was acting extremely well. I couldn't sit down for most of the show. Its a while since any magician had that effect. It knocked David Blaine into a cocked hat.
Altogther I'd say well done Channel 4 for a brilliant show. Whether it was real or fake, I don't much care. It was certainly remarkable.
There were press stories about how irresponsible it was and how it might encourage others to try the stunt. After every commercial break the announcer stressed the 'don't try this at home' line. You would hope that would be self evident. There was nothing casual about the way Derren did this it was played absolutely straight and seriously.
As an aside, the whole thing was filmed in a secret location overseas. The stunt itself is a clear violation of our gun laws!
The hour long show consisted mainly of Derren Brown choosing the person who would choose what chamber to put the bullet in.
He started with 100 people (selected from 12,000 applicants) and perfomed a number of mind games or tests to whittle them down.
As he did that he did a number of his 'tricks' such as predicting what sort of face one of the contestants would draw on a pad and also what colour chair each of 5 finalists would choose to sit in. Like someone who posted above I don't know how much of this is genuine psychology and how much in conjuring but it was entertaining and impressive stuff.
The tension built as he chose the final person. He asked them to think of any word and by looking at their eyes on a video monitor (apparantly) he wrote down in full view what he thought they were thinking. He was right or close on three out of the five if I remember rightly. He then chose his finalist.
The live section of the show saw the two men sit at a table with a revolver in front of them. The armourer came in and loaded one live cartridge into the revolver and fired it at a sandbag. A hole appeared and a blackened cartridge was emptied out of the revolver.
The Volunteer then chose one cartridge and the armourer left.
The volunteer had checked (rather quickly to be honest) that there were no hidden cameras under the table. He then took the revolver and placed a cartridge in one of the chnmbers while holding both under the table so that Derren couldn't see. The chambers were numbered 1 to 6 and Derren told the volunteer to repeat the number to himself over and over agin to fasten it in his mind - and to double check that he had loaded the right one.
Then (still under the table) the volunteer loaded a sleeve onto the revolver which blocked the view of the chambers from either end of the gun and was asked to check that there was nothing visible. Then he put the gun back on the table.
Derren gave him a nice speach about how it wouldn't be his fault if Derren blew his head off and then sent the volunteer to sit behind a bullet proof screen. He then asked the volunteer to count slowly from 1 to 6 saying 'Don't try to help me or give me a clue. If you do that you will confuse me and its very important that I should not be confused'
After that Derren said "I think Chamber 3 is safe" and he turned the revolver to that chamber. After a pause he put the pistol to his head and pulled the trigger.
click
Then he paused again and then picked up the gun and pulled the trigger
click
More of a pause and then he put the gun to his head. Looked unceetain and aimed the gun at the sandbags. He flicnched as he pulled the trigger
click
So he'd been wrong about that. He now paused for a full 2 minutes at least. No music, no commentary no drumroll, no movement. Electric.
Then he picked the gun up really quickly put it to his head and fired
click
He aimed at the sandbags
Bang.
He gets up and hugs the volunteer. The credits roll.
I've described it in detail to make a few points:
1. Derren never claims to be psychic. He explains how he does what he does (sometimes) and its always based on psychology.
2. This might have been a magic trick rather than a stunt - I have no clue. I'd be interested to hear views
3. As television it was everything magic has ceased to be. It had a real sense of danger. If Derren was acting his tension before firing the last time he was acting extremely well. I couldn't sit down for most of the show. Its a while since any magician had that effect. It knocked David Blaine into a cocked hat.
Altogther I'd say well done Channel 4 for a brilliant show. Whether it was real or fake, I don't much care. It was certainly remarkable.
There were press stories about how irresponsible it was and how it might encourage others to try the stunt. After every commercial break the announcer stressed the 'don't try this at home' line. You would hope that would be self evident. There was nothing casual about the way Derren did this it was played absolutely straight and seriously.
As an aside, the whole thing was filmed in a secret location overseas. The stunt itself is a clear violation of our gun laws!
Well what can I say - I watched the last 15 minutes with my jaw on the floor. I was gemuinely concerned that it wasn't a trick, everyone watching (apart from a few sickos) were hoping it was a safe trick and not his judgment / suggestion.
Weve seen him do similar stunts but never with such a high level of danger (well no danger - apart from arrest when he was conning money off betting staff in a bookies).
Apparently there was a slight delay between the show being aired (semi live so to speak) in case he blew his head off.
He did look scared to me - none of your copperfield squirming around etc - just sitting there looking like a guy who could possibly blow his brains out at any point.
You watch most magicians basically knowing 100% they are pretty safe - but this was different, it just seemed so raw and real - no smoke or scantily clad women - two men in a barn and a gun.
When the odds were down to 3:1 as he clicked round the chambers and he sat there deciding if he was going to do it.. well trick or not.. I was terrified. Never have i ever felt any level of fear like it watching any trick - I suppose if you convinced yourself it was a trick right from the start then it wouldn't have been scary at all.
I think the main thing is it's simply a modification of other mind tricks he's done - it's what gave it a high level of credibility - was it the same thing though?, the only difference was he vetted his "bullet selector" for how easily he said he could read them - this isn't normal as who cares if he gets it wrong in his other tricks- they can edit that out ;-)
Weve all seen escapology stuff thats very dangerous and tbh all the fuss about how dangerous the trick was.. well dead is dead irrispective of how it happens. Gun to the head - or failing to get out of a straight jacket before a roller coaster hits you...
As for Blane - get out of you box and go home.. nobody cares or is impressed, you have been seriously upstaged this time m8y.
AX
Weve seen him do similar stunts but never with such a high level of danger (well no danger - apart from arrest when he was conning money off betting staff in a bookies).
Apparently there was a slight delay between the show being aired (semi live so to speak) in case he blew his head off.
He did look scared to me - none of your copperfield squirming around etc - just sitting there looking like a guy who could possibly blow his brains out at any point.
You watch most magicians basically knowing 100% they are pretty safe - but this was different, it just seemed so raw and real - no smoke or scantily clad women - two men in a barn and a gun.
When the odds were down to 3:1 as he clicked round the chambers and he sat there deciding if he was going to do it.. well trick or not.. I was terrified. Never have i ever felt any level of fear like it watching any trick - I suppose if you convinced yourself it was a trick right from the start then it wouldn't have been scary at all.
I think the main thing is it's simply a modification of other mind tricks he's done - it's what gave it a high level of credibility - was it the same thing though?, the only difference was he vetted his "bullet selector" for how easily he said he could read them - this isn't normal as who cares if he gets it wrong in his other tricks- they can edit that out ;-)
Weve all seen escapology stuff thats very dangerous and tbh all the fuss about how dangerous the trick was.. well dead is dead irrispective of how it happens. Gun to the head - or failing to get out of a straight jacket before a roller coaster hits you...
As for Blane - get out of you box and go home.. nobody cares or is impressed, you have been seriously upstaged this time m8y.
AX
davidhorman
Muse
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He claims it's based on psychology.
The local police here in Jersey (where Brown did the stunt to avoid UK gun laws) issued a statement to say they wouldn't have let him go ahead if they weren't satisfied that there was no chance of anyone being hurt - read into that what you will
David
yes I saw that.
Once the adreneline of watching the programme has passed you're left with the evidence that it was just trickery. Part of me feels really let down. The rest of me says hey, it was a great TV programme. As long as the bogus psychology claims are debunked afterwards - and everyone realises it was a trick - then fair enough.
But if Derren is exposed as a magician hiding behind fake psychology what does he do next? Climb into a box? His Home page doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Hmmm.,
Once the adreneline of watching the programme has passed you're left with the evidence that it was just trickery. Part of me feels really let down. The rest of me says hey, it was a great TV programme. As long as the bogus psychology claims are debunked afterwards - and everyone realises it was a trick - then fair enough.
But if Derren is exposed as a magician hiding behind fake psychology what does he do next? Climb into a box? His Home page doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Hmmm.,
Stevie -G-
New Blood
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- May 1, 2003
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- 20
I don't think that I am easily tricked (although I could be wrong), and am aware of some of the psychological techniques Derren Brown uses. I have also been to see him perform live.
Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.
Two of the techniques he uses to make his "guesses" include:
Reading small movements in the lips, neck, and other parts of the face when the subject is saying that word over and over in their head - I suppose it is natural that when you say a word in your head, you also make some movements that you would make when saying it out loud. It was notable that he asked his subject to do this for the Russian roulette, and paid very close attention to his face when the subject repeated it.
When the subject counts out loud, there can also be tell-tale signs, such as hesitations, emphasis on some words, etc. If you listen back to this occasion, you can sense a relaxation on "3,4,5,6", suggesting the bullet was in chambers 1 or 2.
So, I think DB guessed it was in 1 or 2, and so safely started with chamber 3. He also said out loud, several times "I believe chamber 3 is safe". I think he did this as an extra safety check. The guy who loaded the bullet was probably instructed beforehand to intervene at this stage if DB had guessed wrong. DB said on a radio interview that he would rather face humilitation than death, and so was prepared to withdraw if he wasn't 100%confident.
Having had this unspoken confirmation, I think the rest of the show was choreographed to maximise the effect. He shot the empty chamber toward the sand bag to trick the audience into thinking that he wasn't sure, and build up the tension more. The look of fear on his face looked genuine at the time, but perhaps not. The 2-minute pause was also done for effect.
I think he is an incredibly impressive performer, and that he does not trick his audience - he is just extremely skilled at what he does.
It was brilliant, terrifying TV.
Stevie G.
Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.
Two of the techniques he uses to make his "guesses" include:
Reading small movements in the lips, neck, and other parts of the face when the subject is saying that word over and over in their head - I suppose it is natural that when you say a word in your head, you also make some movements that you would make when saying it out loud. It was notable that he asked his subject to do this for the Russian roulette, and paid very close attention to his face when the subject repeated it.
When the subject counts out loud, there can also be tell-tale signs, such as hesitations, emphasis on some words, etc. If you listen back to this occasion, you can sense a relaxation on "3,4,5,6", suggesting the bullet was in chambers 1 or 2.
So, I think DB guessed it was in 1 or 2, and so safely started with chamber 3. He also said out loud, several times "I believe chamber 3 is safe". I think he did this as an extra safety check. The guy who loaded the bullet was probably instructed beforehand to intervene at this stage if DB had guessed wrong. DB said on a radio interview that he would rather face humilitation than death, and so was prepared to withdraw if he wasn't 100%confident.
Having had this unspoken confirmation, I think the rest of the show was choreographed to maximise the effect. He shot the empty chamber toward the sand bag to trick the audience into thinking that he wasn't sure, and build up the tension more. The look of fear on his face looked genuine at the time, but perhaps not. The 2-minute pause was also done for effect.
I think he is an incredibly impressive performer, and that he does not trick his audience - he is just extremely skilled at what he does.
It was brilliant, terrifying TV.
Stevie G.
Dragon
Graduate Poster
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- 1,639
I agree that there was almost certainly a trick behind the Russian Roulette stunt. I think he uses a combination of psychology and tricks in most of his stuff. But, so what if he makes "pyschology" his USP? He's a showman, an entertainer - can't we allow him his patter?Dazza said:
BTW it looks like his website is under development - he has quite a lot on the Channel 4 site connected to his Mind Control series.