This forum is full of cowards!!!

Is is curious to me how people of assorted "faiths" or "woo" or "CT" appear to apply logic as a means of confirming that other "faiths", etc. are false--but they never see the obvious analogies in their own thinking.

This amuses me to no end.
Oh me too. I grew up Mormon and there is a lot of anti-Mormon litterature written my Christians that uses logic, skepticism and critical thinking to examine Mormonism but somehow critical thinking vaporizes when it comes to their own pet beliefs.
 
Oh me too. I grew up Mormon and there is a lot of anti-Mormon litterature written my Christians that uses logic, skepticism and critical thinking to examine Mormonism but somehow critical thinking vaporizes when it comes to their own pet beliefs.

My favorite is watching them explain the difference between their religion and a cult. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
 
Is is curious to me how people of assorted "faiths" or "woo" or "CT" appear to apply logic as a means of confirming that other "faiths", etc. are false--but they never see the obvious analogies in their own thinking.

This amuses me to no end.

Here's my current sig (in case anyone references this thread after a time when I've changed it):

"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that."
- Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone
 
Why does he think that we're "the rubes who unknowingly worship (the NWO) and not the NWO itself? Can't we get some credit here?
Damn straight. Why else did I spend three years working for the UN victimizing innocent inhabitants of the Balkans, only to "quit" my job and subsequently emigrate (or immigrate, depending on your perspective) to the United States? And my implants twinge when it rains, which is much of the time in western Washington... (grumble, grumble)
 
Oh me too. I grew up Mormon and there is a lot of anti-Mormon litterature written my Christians that uses logic, skepticism and critical thinking to examine Mormonism but somehow critical thinking vaporizes when it comes to their own pet beliefs.


I love Mormons. I always wonder what will happen to a group that promotes education, but members have to find away around the implications of that education when it comes to their beliefs. I grew up with several Mormon best friends (I was raised Catholic) (what a conundrum...2 different "infallible leaders" telling us 2 different "truths"?--and our ETERNITY was at stake!!!)

Utah is often used for genetic studies because Mormons have so many kids and they keep strong kinship charts (it comes in handy when baptizing the dead)....

But I often wonder what they do when the DNA shows so clearly that the book of Mormon is untrue. There's the problem with Indians supposedly being decended from jews--and horses in the new world long before they came over. Do they get a revelation? Ignore it? Explain it away? Stop emphasizing that part of the teachings? or what? Surely some of the doctors and geneticists and biologists in Utah must know what a sham the religion is--do they keep playing along? fade out? try to tell others? confront their religious leaders? share the info. on the down low with the "elders"...?

It's like the town of Stepford...everything is hunky dory so long as you can prop up the illusion and make everything shiney on the outside--

At least the polygamists can spawn a lot of followers--but the mormons have put themselves in an interesting position by promoting education...it's hard to pretend scientists are evil when you are responsible for encouraging their studies.

Right now, I think most just keep their beliefs in a bubble that they don't question or look at too closely. So you are a real apostate. Do you go to the worst level of all--the outer darkness? Level 4. My brother thinks mormons only have the 3 heavens and no hell--but I've heard of the special hell they have just for people like you!--ha!

I am always amused by the Christian bickering as to who is and isn't a "real" Christian and the endless forests of trees wasted on books detailing the confirmation biased "proof".
 
But I often wonder what they do when the DNA shows so clearly that the book of Mormon is untrue. There's the problem with Indians supposedly being decended from jews--and horses in the new world long before they came over. Do they get a revelation? Ignore it? Explain it away? Stop emphasizing that part of the teachings? or what? Surely some of the doctors and geneticists and biologists in Utah must know what a sham the religion is--do they keep playing along? fade out? try to tell others? confront their religious leaders? share the info. on the down low with the "elders"...?
Cognitive dissonance. Oh the twists these folks make to keep the dream alive. Yes, they do promote education. However what you don't know is that most people are not expected to wander too far away from the reservation when it comes to seeking truth. Mormons have a saying to keep the faithful away from troubling facts. They promote this little meme. "Ask yourself, 'does it pertain to my salvation'"

Oh, and there is this one, "conflict is of the devil" so any questions that would cause conflict and the reasons for those questions was because the devil was planting little seeds of doubt. So better to strengthen ones faith than seek answers.

Also, bear in mind that to be too inquisitive can get you formally shunned (excommunicated).

Then there was the time I asked a very intelligent Bishop some sincere and tough questions (I was never a George Carlin type of smart ass. I wish I were. I was a true believer who couldn't reconcile a lot of BS). I was struggling with some questions and so I asked my Bishop and this is approximately what he told me:

When you have a question that you can't answer then simply take it on faith that god has an answer but you are not prepared to receive it at this time. Be patient, pray, trust in god and in time he will reveal HIS answer to you.

I did this for many years when it became apparent that no answers were forth coming and for good reason.

As to horses and DNA? Whatever works. Note that the members have one version of the truth. The church has another and the official apologetic organizations FAIR and FARMS have yet another.

I'm not making this up, it is true.
 
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I dunno...


1. It happened..

2. People died...

3. Consequently, Iraq got a good slapping which it thoroughly deserved...


DB

( PS...BTW...How many big conspiracy theories have actually been proven...??? )


Well, it turns out that the official government story about the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and the Iraqi WMD's (as two examples of events which precipitated a war) turned out to be untrue, or at best, incomplete. However, nothing approaching the scale of the 9/11 conspiracy theories has ever been validated. At least, not to my knowledge.
 
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Cognitive dissonance. Oh the twists these folks make to keep the dream alive. Yes, they do promote education. However what you don't know is that most people are not expected to wander too far away from the reservation when it comes to seeking truth. Mormons have a saying to keep the faithful away from troubling facts. They promote this little meme. "Ask yourself, 'does it pertain to my salvation'"

Wow...just like the Amish. Is there a 4th level besides the 3 heavens just for apostates? Did you go on a mission...wear the sacred underwear? I was trying to get my mormon friend to scientifically test her holy underwear with flame since they have all these "saved by the underweargarments" stories, but she declined. The part that is so insidious is that they make you think "doubt" is satan...and you can lose all your friends and family for expressing doubt. It's cruel, because then you have to unlearn crap before you can relearn truth--which makes the apprehension of knowledge so much more difficult.

When you have a question that you can't answer then simply take it on faith that god has an answer but you are not prepared to receive it at this time. Be patient, pray, trust in god and in time he will reveal HIS answer to you.

And so he did...he told you it was all a bunch of crap. :)

(Paul Provenza joked at TAM4 that one year he decided to give up Catholocism for lent.)

Are you a male or female? I'd think men would really push the faith, because they get to be GODS in the next life. I think the religion sucks for women--it makes their present life so busy with kids that they eagerly look forward to the next. What a great scam--makes lots of new vectors for spreading the naive genes with inane memes. Were you aware of the flower petal story told to girls to keep them "pure" before marriage? My Mormon friends have husbands who think they were "pure" but they were not. Also, I learned that bishops go around asking people if they masturbate...weird and creepy.

The fundies are known to stretch interpretations and apply new interpretation after the fact so that they can keep believing the bible is the inerrant word of god. What is the mormon position on the bible--are they Young Earth Creationists? Or do they allow for some evolution through time? I know that they believe in Adam and Even because black people are supposedly decendents of Cain whom god made black when he killed Able. Religions are very good at getting people to spend lots of time brainwashing themselves.
Is your family still Mormon? What do they think of you?

I just hate this whole idea where people tell their kids that life is a test and that they have souls that will live forever either happily or sadly based on what they believe. It's a recipe for stupidity and fear and it supports the false idea that "truth comes from faith and feelings" rather than evidence. Are some of your friends still Mormon? How old were you when you started having doubts?

My son's chemistry teacher is Mormon and he prefaces comments with, "If you believe in evolution, then..." This pisses me off. Does he say, "If you believe in atoms, then..." or "if you believe in gravity, then..." or "if you believe the earth is spherical, then...?" Nope. My son and I laugh, but I think this is inappropriate--evolution is a fact, not a "belief" and it bothers me when religions equate science with faith.
 
Just saw this on http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=831, in response to the 'no planes' theory:



Hilarious. If only I had more free time.

If you thought that was funny, did you read the theory given?

LeRoienJaune said:
During the late 1960s, the Conspiracy (you're not cleared to know which one) began the first experiment in the generation of mass consensual static holographic images. The experiment would take place in New York City. The aim of this experiment was much like the Fnord project. It was also an inquiry into the long-running question of the validity of the quantum consensus theory- if enough people hallucinate a building for a long enough time, then can the building become real? If this principal could be achieved, the Conspiracy would be able to make tremendous savings on building construction costs.
They began with an iconic design, drawing from the Tarot card of The Tower, an iconic image within the human subconscious (make a note of this as it figures later in the fate of the tower). Then the ad campaign began- newspaper and television articles, fliers, reports in every form of media to the American public about the great construction project that was underway.
While the highly paid actors who had built the 'Saturn V' in Florida for the stage Apollo landings mimicked the activities of constructing the world's largest highrise, an elaborate laser grid was installed. This laser grid served two purposes- to shoot down ballistic missiles approaching NYC and to create a gigantic three dimensional hologram of the buildings that were called the World Trade Center. Then, giant tower shaped balloons were raised up. Certain portions of the towers were real- namely, the observation decks, the public entrance lobbies, and one or two 'sample floors' that were kept open to the public to further augment the delusion that these were actual buildings.
One of the purposes of the imaginary 'World Trade Center' was to provide a public location to cover for organizations that were secretly headquartered elsewhere. The CIA, the SEC, and various important banks and financial companies would claim to have offices at the World Trade Tower- a perfect cover to lure foreign agents into the world's most elaborate spy trap. The gullibility enhancing aerosol drugs were merely the cherry topping on the Conspiracy's great double fudge brownie sundar. Or maybe they were the sprinkles. I don't know, do you put sprinkles on your Sundae?
Like many large scale projects, this experiment became more expensive over time. With the end of the cold war, keeping a laser defense grid was no longer cost effective. And furthermore, Conspiracy scientist were starting to see evidence of a possible epidemic of side effects from the drugs being gassed over the city, something so widespread that it could blow the conspiracy of the imaginary towers wide open.
So it was decided to engineer a plausible cover story for the sudden non-existence of the World Trade Center.
One reason that the denizens of New York are so much more polite and sane these days is due to the fact that they no longer live in a haze of the psychogenic gasses that were dispensed from the twin towers. In fact, the 'smoke' and 'hysteria' witnessed in media footage of the 9/11 event was actually the super-concentrated clouds of the normally invisible cocktail of gases that had been dosing Manhattan for the past 25 years.
The so-called 'physical structure' of the two towers was actually little more than two extremely large inflatable balloons, filled with mostly hydrogen. Thus when the hijacked planes flew into them, the towers exploded, consuming the jets planes in a cloud of smoke.
For the first few days, when a cordon was being enforced around the area, FEMA trucks were actually transporting in simulated rubble made out of styrofoam for the eventual press coverage of the ruins. The conspiracy killed even more birds with one fiendishly clever stone by taking the corpses of various individuals who had been 'disappeared', doctoring the corpses to look appropriately burned, smashed, whatever, and then having 'experts' 'identify' 'them' 'as' 'the' 'bodies' 'of' 'the' 'victims'.
Meanwhile, 2,900 agents of the conspiracy, who previously had covers as employees of the WTC, were suddenly recategorized as being 'dead'. The Conspiracy disposed of some 2,900 inconveniant corpses of meddling teenagers at the same time as they erased the public records of 2,900 members, and ended a boondoggle experiment in mass mind control. And THAT, my friends, is the true story of 9/11......

Ok, crazy enough, but wait, here's the response:

Mick said:
Damn, thats exactly what I was thinking!

It's totally plausible.

HotDogBun said:
Great job on that theory, it is every bit as plausable as the no-plane theories, except your no-building theory provides far more factual evidence. You should copy-paste that thing to the webfairy ([email protected]) and see how long it takes for it to have it;s own page on her site.

and again, thanks for entertaining me dude.

These people are simply hopeless. Its not that they believe in foolish things, its that they don't even understand the concept of factual evidence. I could present a theory that 9/11 didn't even occur, that we were simply brainwashed to believe it did, and they would congratulate me as a hero of unsurpassed knowledge. You simply can not reason with them because they have no concept of reason or reality for that matter. They're simply interested in whatever theory furthers their delusional beliefs.
 
Wow...just like the Amish. Is there a 4th level besides the 3 heavens just for apostates? Did you go on a mission...wear the sacred underwear? I was trying to get my mormon friend to scientifically test her holy underwear with flame since they have all these "saved by the underweargarments" stories, but she declined. The part that is so insidious is that they make you think "doubt" is satan...and you can lose all your friends and family for expressing doubt. It's cruel, because then you have to unlearn crap before you can relearn truth--which makes the apprehension of knowledge so much more difficult.
Yeah, and of course Mormons wearning garments (sacred underwear) die in crashes and fires all of the time. It's all BS.

When I left on my mission I honestly thought that if I went swimming I would die because "Satan ruled the waters". Can you believe that $h!t?

And so he did...he told you it was all a bunch of crap. :)

(Paul Provenza joked at TAM4 that one year he decided to give up Catholocism for lent.)
I got to talk to Paul, damn what a great guy.

Are you a male or female? I'd think men would really push the faith, because they get to be GODS in the next life. I think the religion sucks for women--it makes their present life so busy with kids that they eagerly look forward to the next. What a great scam--makes lots of new vectors for spreading the naive genes with inane memes. Were you aware of the flower petal story told to girls to keep them "pure" before marriage? My Mormon friends have husbands who think they were "pure" but they were not. Also, I learned that bishops go around asking people if they masturbate...weird and creepy.
I'm male. I waited until I was 22 before I had intercourse. I became very good at quiting masturbating. And yes, my bishops all asked me in interviews if I had quit masturbating. I always wanted a bishop to ask me if I had a problem with masturbating. "Hell no, I'm quite adept at it".

The fundies are known to stretch interpretations and apply new interpretation after the fact so that they can keep believing the bible is the inerrant word of god. What is the mormon position on the bible--are they Young Earth Creationists? Or do they allow for some evolution through time? I know that they believe in Adam and Even because black people are supposedly decendents of Cain whom god made black when he killed Able. Religions are very good at getting people to spend lots of time brainwashing themselves.
I'm honestly not certain if there is an official position on young earth. Most believe in young earth I believe. Creation is both symbolic and literal.

Is your family still Mormon? What do they think of you?
My family and my wifes family are very active Mormons. My mother had a hard time at first but she got over it. My mother-in-law thinks my wife and I and my kids are inactive. It would kill her to find out we were atheists. My wife doesn't want to go there.

I just hate this whole idea where people tell their kids that life is a test and that they have souls that will live forever either happily or sadly based on what they believe. It's a recipe for stupidity and fear and it supports the false idea that "truth comes from faith and feelings" rather than evidence. Are some of your friends still Mormon? How old were you when you started having doubts?

My son's chemistry teacher is Mormon and he prefaces comments with, "If you believe in evolution, then..." This pisses me off. Does he say, "If you believe in atoms, then..." or "if you believe in gravity, then..." or "if you believe the earth is spherical, then...?" Nope. My son and I laugh, but I think this is inappropriate--evolution is a fact, not a "belief" and it bothers me when religions equate science with faith.
:)
 
If you thought that was funny, did you read the theory given?
That doesn't even rise to the level of bad fiction.

These people are simply hopeless. Its not that they believe in foolish things, its that they don't even understand the concept of factual evidence. I could present a theory that 9/11 didn't even occur, that we were simply brainwashed to believe it did, and they would congratulate me as a hero of unsurpassed knowledge. You simply can not reason with them because they have no concept of reason or reality for that matter. They're simply interested in whatever theory furthers their delusional beliefs.
Yes, I note that the long-winded "theory" you copied-n-pasted was remarkably short of supporting evidence. As in: none.

Makes it easy to understand how the concept of a supreme being so easily gained (and maintains, of course) a foothold.
 
So is anybody gonna go on this guy's show or what? I would love to hear it.

Me too, but as explained to me, it would be much better if it were a nuetral host. Roxdog has a LOT of ducks in a row, so I think it would make for some serious, thought provoking entertainment
 
This question is mainly for RandFan. I did some reading on the Mormon's views of blacks, namely that they're descended from Cain who was punished for killing Abel. Also I read about the belief that if you're good in your "pre-existance" then you're born white, if you're bad you're born black.

In 1978 the LDs changed their policy about letting blacks become priests. Do they still believe in the above nonsense, or was that all wiped out by the 1978 decision? It amazes me that a religion that is so bigoted at its core could have grown as fast and as large as the Mormons have.

Steve S.
 
This question is mainly for RandFan. I did some reading on the Mormon's views of blacks, namely that they're descended from Cain who was punished for killing Abel. Also I read about the belief that if you're good in your "pre-existance" then you're born white, if you're bad you're born black.

In 1978 the LDs changed their policy about letting blacks become priests. Do they still believe in the above nonsense, or was that all wiped out by the 1978 decision? It amazes me that a religion that is so bigoted at its core could have grown as fast and as large as the Mormons have.

Steve S.
Good question. Damn, you've put me into the position of defending the church to a small degree.

1.) AIU, there has been no official refutation of the belief.
2.) It was insidious.
3.) Similar ideas exist about Native Americans.
4.) There was an an unusual sort of racism for most Mormons that was not overt but incredibly ignorant. Those who have been educated as to such ignorance are usually embarrassed.
5.) My father was Southern Baptist and his mother was virulently racist. We (my family) considered ourselves not racist. We spoke of my Grandmothers hatred towards minorities not realizing that we too were to a degree racist.

What can I say, ignorance is ignorance. I can't excuse it. I can tell you that there are many blacks in the church and there were blacks before 1978. Go figure.

If you google Spencer W. Kimball (former Prophet now dead) and Native Americans you will likely find something incredibly offensive he once said about Native Americans. It wasn't meant to be offensive. The Mormon church was providing aid to Native American families and I honestly think it was a sincere effort. At the time I heard it I didn't think that it was. It's just awful. It's caused by ignorance and isolation.

FWIW, this is the type of thing I try to discuss with my mother-in-law. The church is always saying "be in the world and not of the world". The church sees evil and sin every where and so they try to isolate themselves. Example, my niece was a huge Alicia Silverstone fan and so one year I got her a framed poster for the movie Clueless while she was staying with us. She was very emotional when she got it and couldn't thank me enough. It was one of my better gifts. Later when I went to her home I noticed it wasn't on the wall. The only things there were Mormon posters (yes, they exist). I asked her about it and she got sad and said she didn't want to talk about it. :mad:
 
Thanks for responding. I've never really known much about the Mormons. They don't seem to be too prevalent around here (St. Louis.) I'll see their missionaries riding their bikes around town, but they never seem to stop anywhere.:)

Steve S
 

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