Moderated Thermite: Was it there or not?

[MIKILLINI]

No it doesn't...that's the rub. No building in the entire history of this planet has ever been crushed down to the ground by one-tenth of itself as it was in the case of the North Tower on 9/11. Never, ever.

Psst! Hey Bill...Has any building as tall as the WTC towers ever been hit by an airliner? Ever ever?

 

[bill smith]

Hoffman is nuts on 911. He has the thermite in the ceiling tiles, millions of them with remote detonators. Radio controlled at that. Hoffman is injecting too much thermite, or lots of meth

My own theory was that the concrete floors were sprayed with nano-thermite. Concrete is porous and nano materials are small enough to enter the human cell let alone concrete. When ignited by remote the nano-thermite would almost instantly reach a temperature of up to 5,000 degrees centigrade, boiling whatever water residue was in he concrete and instantly pulverising it, melting the 80 acres of 20mm thick floorpans, and vapourising the 160 acres of rebar reinforcing almost none of which is found in he rubble pile.

....but the ceiling tiles are interesting too.

 

[bill smith]

Wow, this is ignorance! First, Hoffman quotes indeed from the book, but the book qoutes from the white paper, which you can find in the NIST report. Read it up by yourself, it´s Appendix A. Compare to Hoffman. Learn something.

Second, if Hoffman would be "a brilliant researcher" he wouldn´t keep quiet about the fact that the Richard Roth Telegramm is just a copy of the PANY white paper (a fact his own source tells him, cf. my citation here).

I will leave the discussion for now, Bill. Not only do you lack basic knowledge about your very own sources, also almost everything you state here is pure (and somewhat random) opinion.

Gotta speculate to accumulate Bro...

 

[beachnut]

Robertson is the man who is responsible for the WTC structure he said the exact words, "preposterous" and "irresponsible" when Jones presented his delusional thermite story.

Robertson explained to Jones the WTC would collapse the way we saw on 911. But Jones just keeps spewing the lies and insanity of thermite.


At 180 mph a 707 Robertson designed for would have 187 pounds of TNT impact. Not very much damage, it would be localized to the exterior, not the core! 600 mph, even Robertson, like me, could calculate the 2200 pounds on of TNT KE impact would damage the core big time! Even a kid in a physics class with some initial conditions could figure this out; do you think Robertson could?! He was the Chief Structural Engineer on the WTC! Robertson did the calculations for 180 which were checked after 911 by another independent study and it proves an aircraft impact less than 200 mph would not do significant damage and the fire therefore would not be the problem they were on 911.


The paper is here about the WTC. A real journal.
http://www.nae.edu/Publications/TheBridge/Archives/V-39-2EnergyEfficiency14874.aspx

Download it here
http://www.nae.edu/File.aspx?id=14867

Robertson built the WTC towers; he would be the first person to see anything wrong with the NIST report. He agrees it was a gravity collapse and the delusion of controlled demolition is not supported by practicing engineers who build real buildings.

The fact is thermite is debunked by NIST, and many Universities not by attacking the delusion of thermite but explain what happen to the WTC. This is why the idiots in 911Truthlies can't find the debunking of thermite; it is hidden in reality based scientific studies on the collapse of the WTC.

Warning this post contains real truth, from a real journal; reading and comprehending what is in the journal may destroy your delusions if you are able to comprehend.

 

[MIKILLINI]

Beachnut...Sweetie...I think we learned here today to properly interpret the statements of DeMartini and Skilling. It was quite eye-opening. There will be no going back.

No surprise there, the twoof debunked house is always a haven of conspiracy theorists, subjects to be misinterpreted and thriving paranoia. Do they have a "bar" there, Bill?

 

[bill smith]

Psst! Hey Bill...Has any building as tall as the WTC towers ever been hit by an airliner? Ever ever?

It doesn't signify. The aircraft was only the tool that brought about the local damage to the building- and exit stage left.. After that there was only the dynamic of the top one -tenth of the cuilding crushing the intact lower and stronger nine-tenths of the building down flat on the ground by gravity alone.

Let me tell you- that did not happen without help . Nohow.

 

[MIKILLINI]

It doesn't signify. The aircraft was only the tool that brought about the local damage to the building- and exit stage left.. After that there was only the dynamic of the top one -tenth of the cuilding crushing the intact lower and stronger nine-tenths of the bilding down flat on the ground by gravity alone.

Let me tell you- that did not happen without help . Nohow.

Let me tell you- The Frank Greening you had mentioned a time or two before, had thrown a hypothesis of his own in the mix a couple of years ago.
Frank's main theme was the heat-weakening of steel via Ammonium Perchlorate as the catalyst sprayed on the fire-resistant foam.
His point was the perchlorate would increase the heat to further weaken the steel, causing the collapse, but he never heavily disputed the progressive collapse. He was basing his theory on the analysis of the rubble pile from all chlorinated species found within the pile, including the NY Board Of Health studies of the smoke coming from the rubble.

Another by the name of Max Photon proposed thermite as the catalyst to heat-weaken the steel so that the towers would collapse. He also proposed iron-oxide rust creating mechanisms so that the aluminum from the aircraft's skin would mix with the iron-oxide to create phreato-thermatic explosions ensuring the buildings to collapse. Max never really disputed the progressive collapse either. Max mentioned thermite wasn't needed to demolish the towers, just enough to cause the collapse.

Both Max and Frank believed Jones' hypothesis carried no water because they both were convinced top down explosive demolition would be a huge undertaking in terms of the explosives needed and totally unnecessary in terms of stupid.

So believe what you will Bill, nothing has been compelling or tangible that overshadows the current evidence and numerous investigations already performed. Research requires evidence and there are volumes of reports to look through. Frank and Max did research and tried to make their hypothesis fit the evidence. They did not succeed because the evidence didn't fit their hypothesis.

 

[bill smith]

Let me tell you- The Frank Greening you had mentioned a time or two before, had thrown a hypothesis of his own in the mix a couple of years ago.
Frank's main theme was the heat-weakening of steel via Ammonium Perchlorate as the catalyst sprayed on the fire-resistant foam.
His point was the perchlorate would increase the heat to further weaken the steel, causing the collapse, but he never heavily disputed the progressive collapse. He was basing his theory on the analysis of the rubble pile from all chlorinated species found within the pile, including the NY Board Of Health studies of the smoke coming from the rubble.

Another by the name of Max Photon proposed thermite as the catalyst to heat-weaken the steel so that the towers would collapse. He also proposed iron-oxide rust creating mechanisms so that the aluminum from the aircraft's skin would mix with the iron-oxide to create phreato-thermatic explosions ensuring the buildings to collapse. Max never really disputed the progressive collapse either. Max mentioned thermite wasn't needed to demolish the towers, just enough to cause the collapse.

Both Max and Frank believed Jones' hypothesis carried no water because they both were convinced top down explosive demolition would be a huge undertaking in terms of the explosives needed and totally unnecessary in terms of stupid.

So believe what you will Bill, nothing has been compelling or tangible that overshadows the current evidence and numerous investigations already performed. Research requires evidence and there are volumes of reports to look through. Frank and Max did research and tried to make their hypothesis fit the evidence. They did not succeed because the evidence didn't fit their hypothesis.

I hink that Frank Greening is actually one of your guys.

'' Max Photon proposed thermite as the catalyst to heat-weaken the steel so that the towers would collapse ''

Can I take it hat this convoluted sentence means that Max said that Thermite brought down the Twin Towers ?.

 

[twinstead]

Frank Greening has no love for "us guys". He just thinks people like you are morons.

 

[Justin39640]

'' Max Photon proposed thermite as the catalyst to heat-weaken the steel so that the towers would collapse ''

i can hear richard gage now:
"the thermite only had to get the steel hot enough to weaken it, not melt it. gravity did the rest"

 

[Grizzly Bear]

i can hear richard gage now:
"the thermite only had to get the steel hot enough to weaken it, not melt it. gravity did the rest"

That certainly makes out imaginary conspirators utterly retarded...

 

[MIKILLINI]

I hink that Frank Greening is actually one of your guys.

'' Max Photon proposed thermite as the catalyst to heat-weaken the steel so that the towers would collapse ''

Can I take it hat this convoluted sentence means that Max said that Thermite brought down the Twin Towers ?.

Frank Greening wasn't "one of our guys" Bill, he posted on here. As I previously mentioned, he came in proposing his perchlorate theory. Frank had genius intelligence but also had a bit of neurotic/psychotic moments.

There is nothing convoluted about that sentence regarding Max Photon. That was his hypothesis verbatim. Thermite used to heat-weaken the steel, not cut steel or vaporize steel, but to heat-weaken in the very same area the airliners crashed into. He believed the airliners were remote controlled to crash in these areas to cover up the heat-weakening of the thermite.
The whole idea was to cause collapse of the buildings and let gravity do the rest, he nor Frank did not dispute the dynamic loads once collapse began. Their theories were soley based on collapse initiation.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Frank Greening wasn't "one of our guys" Bill, he posted on here. As I previously mentioned, he came in proposing his perchlorate theory. Frank had genius intelligence but also had a bit of neurotic/psychotic moments.

To be fair, I don't think the perchlorate proposal was one of those. Rather, that was him showing everyone that it's indeed possible to come up with a conspiratorial proposal that actually fits the observed events. I think (this is my own opinion) that he intended it as a scolding that went in both directions: Towards us "NISTians" (his eventual term for us) for not having the imagination to believe that such a proposal could be generated yet stay true to the observations, and towards the conspiracy peddlers for not even trying to refine their proposals against what was known.

Honestly, I think it was a wonderful exercise in logical thought, and I really do not see him as having proposed it seriously. Plus, you gotta admit, it's a far better proposal than anything truthers have come up with, and Greening seems to have done it relatively "off the cuff" too, especially compared with the long, slow, drawn out descent into wrong that Steven Jones is taking.

 

[Edx]

To be fair, I don't think the perchlorate proposal was one of those. Rather, that was him showing everyone that it's indeed possible to come up with a conspiratorial proposal that actually fits the observed events. I think (this is my own opinion) that he intended it as a scolding that went in both directions: Towards us "NISTians" (his eventual term for us) for not having the imagination to believe that such a proposal could be generated yet stay true to the observations, and towards the conspiracy peddlers for not even trying to refine their proposals against what was known.

Thats what I dont get, why do truthers have to propose the most convoluted and over the top conspiracy? Why is it necessary to fake the plane crashing into the Pentagon? WHy did they use drone aircraft yet train hijackers, yet do it badly that they couldnt even fly a small plane (hani). Why dont they think, Hmmm why not just crash a real plane into the damn building. sigh

 

[MIKILLINI]

To be fair, I don't think the perchlorate proposal was one of those. Rather, that was him showing everyone that it's indeed possible to come up with a conspiratorial proposal that actually fits the observed events. I think (this is my own opinion) that he intended it as a scolding that went in both directions: Towards us "NISTians" (his eventual term for us) for not having the imagination to believe that such a proposal could be generated yet stay true to the observations, and towards the conspiracy peddlers for not even trying to refine their proposals against what was known.

Honestly, I think it was a wonderful exercise in logical thought, and I really do not see him as having proposed it seriously. Plus, you gotta admit, it's a far better proposal than anything truthers have come up with, and Greening seems to have done it relatively "off the cuff" too, especially compared with the long, slow, drawn out descent into wrong that Steven Jones is taking.

Thanks for expanding on that Elmondo and you are correct about Frank. He did propose this to everyone to see, including Jones, and no, it wasn't during one of his episode moments. It certainly was a more intriguing proposal than demolition.

 

[triforcharity]

Beachnut, I've got some pretty strong opinions when it comes to foreign policy, not all of which I'll share here.

I think 9/11 was the result of many, many events over decades which culminated in an attack by islamic extremists against the idea of 'America'.

In my opinion, there is not enough evidence to support the Thermite hypothesis. The fires underneath the towers were strangely hot, many first-responders witnessed molten metals, strange ejections from the south tower impact zone....things like this can not be immediately discarded. However, there are logical explanations for anomalies, and I believe that an event as large as the collapses of the 3 WTC towers would create many anomalies.

The fires underneath the towers were not strange in any sort of the word, at least not to the educated. Many first responders did report seeing molten metal, sure. But, with the amount of aluminum that was contained in the tower it was not suprising. At all.

I appllaud the fact that you did get some things correct. The 19 hijackers, the anomalies that would be expected with something this. At least you can understand that much, for that you have a little bit of respect from me. For now.

 

[BigAl]

The fires underneath the towers were not strange in any sort of the word, at least not to the educated. Many first responders did report seeing molten metal, sure. But, with the amount of aluminum that was contained in the tower it was not suprising. At all.

I appllaud the fact that you did get some things correct. The 19 hijackers, the anomalies that would be expected with something this. At least you can understand that much, for that you have a little bit of respect from me. For now.

He also says "In my opinion, there is not enough evidence to support the Thermite hypothesis".

There's hope for him.

 

[DavidJames]

I think 9/11 was the result of many, many events over decades which culminated in an attack by islamic extremists against the idea of 'America'.

In general, I tend to agree. Sadly, some will see your comment and claim what your doing is making excuses for them or worse, trying to justify the terrorism. I think that's nonsense. It was cowardly terrorism regardless if they felt if it was justified.

In my opinion, there is not enough evidence to support the Thermite hypothesis.

I agree and it looks like I may have judged you to quickly, I apologize. As for the rest or your comments in that post, I agree with triforcharity.

 

[CHF]

After that there was only the dynamic of the top one -tenth of the cuilding crushing the intact lower and stronger nine-tenths of the building down flat on the ground by gravity alone.

Cleverly phrased but stupid as hell.

You're trying to make it sound odd that 10% of a building could destroy the other 90% - and to the morons in the TM it does sound odd, but only if you pretend that the top mass didn't strike the rest of the building floor-by-floor.

So the question you should be asking is: could the dynamic weight of the top sections (50,000 and 120,000 tons respectively) smash through each floor it encountered?

Yes it could. In a fraction of a second.

 

[triforcharity]

Phew, I was wondering how much more it would take to get Macky to ignore me. You failed to provide any legitimate answers anyhow....just the same Duhbunker canned lines....

...with regards to your disposition; if you can't take it Ryan, don't dish it out.

Beachnut and Trutherslie, could you ignore me as well?

I posted a response to you just a little while ago, and the respect that you HAD earned from me is vaporized, and I used thermite to do it.....

Anyway, you ask for a concensus from us about why we think that Jones is wrong. I have read every page of this thread, and you have been in attack mode for most of it. You ask for us to tell you why we think Jones' paper is wrong. The answer was given. You asked why we think Jones' lied/misrepresented/etc, in his papers. That answer can only be an opinion, as the fact of the matter cannot be provided without asking Jones. He will continue to lie/misrepresent his answer to that, because (I believe) that if he did, the cash flow would evaporate in a matter of minutes. Quicker than if you lit it on fire with thermite.

I was there that day, and saw nothing that I thought was suspicious. NOTHING. I spent the next 3 months, day and night, even my days off, searching that rubble for victims. I know, for a fact, that I did not find any body parts that looked out of the ordinary. I mean, other than the fact that their arm was not attached to the rest of their body. I also found NOTHING else out of the ordinary, again, other than the fact that a building that I spent many years working in and within sight of was laying on the ground in a huge pile. That I found out of the ordinary.

Please, if you have something intelligent to add to the discussion, please do. But, as of now, I do not see that happening. But, I am only speculating.